"Seat of Pants" Sideslip indicator

[Stoney]

As for realism - ask any real pilot.

How much time to do you have in an actual cockpit Boomer?  (That's a question, not a flame)

For me personally, when I'm flying, I don't notice small variations in coordinated flight.  I'll caveat this by saying (1) I only have 130 hours of flight time and (2) all my experience is in small, general aviation aircraft, and not WWII era fighters.  The only time I ever "feel" the effects of coordinated flight is usually during a steep turn, where I'll remeber to step on the ball, and can feel the plane turn a little better/faster.  During normal maneuvering during cross-country flight, I fly with my feet flat on the floor of the cockpit because I don't need to ride the rudders.  Feet go onto the pedals once I enter the pattern.  Some planes I've flown don't allow you that option, but the plane I owned did.  Baumer might be a good person to ask, as he has time in a couple of WWII aircraft.

[Widewing]

This all seems kind of silly to me... Get enough experience in the game and you will develop a sense of uncoordinated flight visually.

In the countless duels I've flown over the many years that I've been flying Aces High, I have never had anyone out-turn me in a lufbery while flying the same plane configured the same way (let's say at treetop level, flaps all the way out). I've seen a few able to match me, but no one has been able to gain ground. I never look at the slip indicator. I coordinate my turn visually. Developing that sense takes many hours of practice. Some have it, most don't, but just about anyone can develop it if they work at it. Having top quality flight controller gear helps a great deal. Precision has no substitute. Smooth control input is essential.

My suggestion to boomerlu is to practice, practice and practice some more.... You'll find it eventually.


My regards,

Widewing

[boomerlu]

How much time to do you have in an actual cockpit Boomer?  (That's a question, not a flame)

Sorry, none here. Caught me redhanded . All I've heard is anecdotal (yeah, take it with a grain of salt). But one can infer a lot from physics and simple real life situations (e.g., driving).

For me personally, when I'm flying, I don't notice small variations in coordinated flight.  I'll caveat this by saying (1) I only have 130 hours of flight time and (2) all my experience is in small, general aviation aircraft, and not WWII era fighters.  The only time I ever "feel" the effects of coordinated flight is usually during a steep turn, where I'll remeber to step on the ball, and can feel the plane turn a little better/faster.  During normal maneuvering during cross-country flight, I fly with my feet flat on the floor of the cockpit because I don't need to ride the rudders.  Feet go onto the pedals once I enter the pattern.  Some planes I've flown don't allow you that option, but the plane I owned did.  Baumer might be a good person to ask, as he has time in a couple of WWII aircraft.

I appreciate the real feedback here even if it contradicts my position to some degree. My only defense here is that those times you do remember (steeply banked) are precisely the main situations that I'm making this request for in the first place. Lose a bit of energy in non-combat maneuvers like course corrections, meh... In those cases I'm looking forward anyways.

My suggestion to boomerlu is to practice, practice and practice some more.... You'll find it eventually.

Granted. My question is then - why be opposed to making the learning curve less steep? Would you not have rather spent the countless hours practicing this doing something else, especially when this is the last 10% of ACM?

Also - what are the visual cues we currently have? Would certainly like to know what to look for in the future for all the practice I'll be doing... (note this is a serious question and a serious comment about practicing a lot, but the snide interpretation certainly does reinforce my point).

I'll add here one other possible criticism of the idea - I'm not sure if I'd remember to use it in a heated fight. I'm guessing that people who currently fly coordinated in AH battle "remember" to do so by muscle memory rather than by a conscious effort.

But in defense (relating back to realism), what I'm asking for would give an OVERT cue to fly coordinated (just as a stall horn is an overt signal about the AoA limits of the aircraft) in line with what I've read about pilots feeling and can infer from physics.

However, I do NOT expect "HUD" in WWII. So why ask for what is essentially a unrealistic hud?

This was the type of response I was expecting earlier. Instead of giving rhetorical questions I would have said...

It doesn't have to be as OBVIOUS as a HUD. It could be e.g. a very slight color change of the screen on the opposite side that you've sideslipped to (i.e., sideslip right, left screen darkens a bit because inertial forces have moved your pilot to the left of the aircraft). So, step on the ball, eliminate the visual cue. Sure my initial idea was "HUD" like, but the actual implementation is much less important than the idea itself - what I'm asking for can certainly stand refinement. So here's the first one - I don't care if it's HUD-esque. Just ANY visual cue. In fact you bring up a good point. Now that I think about it, I probably don't WANT it to be HUD-esque

Refinement 2 it doesn't need to be "LAZER PRECISE". You could even build in a degree of imprecision so that you eliminate about say 70% of the sideslip when the screen returns to normal and the last 30% (or whatever number properly reflects pilot feel) you're going to have to practice for.

And once again as far as realism - remember that we are trying to simulate the entire pilot/machine system hence we have blackouts, redouts, and immovable stick forces (e.g. 109 in a dive). Such a philosophy is the essence of Combat Trim. The general feature I'm asking for is perfectly in line with this ideal in spirit - implementation can vary.

[boomerlu]

...and if you had stopped to think about the many concessions the game already offers, you'd soon have realized such points are trivial to the point of insignificance, and hardly effects the game in any way for the absolute majority of people who've been playing this game a lot more than you have.

Experience does not equate to competence. Nor does it equate to an understanding of flight dynamics or physics.

Now admittedly it's a small benefit. The request is to make it easier to squeeze the last 10% out of your airplane and admittedly, the majority doesn't even know what coordinated flight is. BUT on the up side - if it's overtly indicated to them (see my later post on modified implementation) they might understand it better or have an incentive to learn why their screen changes color a bit on one side.

A 0.2 second flick of a thumb quite kindly swivels your neck around at any direction for 360 degrees despite the angle, position, speed and Gs the plane is being effected at, at which point it takes about another 0.5 seconds to move your eyeball and look at the ball and return to your view of the enemy plane.

0.5 seconds MATTER in air combat. Doesn't take a 7 year vet to know that. In 0.5 seconds your opponent could have rolled away and run, rolled in to commit to attack. In 0.5 seconds you could have missed a firing window, a window to escape, or any manner of very material advantages/disadvantages. In addition, to ALWAYS fly coordinated by looking back at the ball, you would have to look back EVERY time you changed your control input (loosened up the stick, pulled back on the stick, rolled). Considering how that happens about once every second in a heated battle, what you're suggesting amounts to spending HALF of your time looking at the ball.

Plenty of pilots already fly and fight well enough without a constant, ahistoric HUD update. If they have no problems with it, why should you?

See my most recent post for an alternate Non-HUD implementation.

I fly fine without it, but this is an IMPROVEMENT in the game to bring it closer to physical reality. It's a suggestion/wish, NOT a whine (which, quite frankly, is what your comment about the concessions in this game sounds like - if you have a problem with the concessions HTC already makes, why not find another sim). I am not saying BOOHOO I CAN'T FLY COORDINATED WHILE TRACKING MY OPPONENT AND HE SHOT ME DOWN, PLEASE MAKE IT EASIER.

I am saying, make the learning curve a bit easier for those who are willing to deal with coordinated flight, and also represent a physically realistic aspect of flight (that would be inertial forces acting on the pilot giving him an overt cue about sideslip).

[boomerlu]

I just realized - this doesn't even necessarily have to be visual. It could in fact be an audio cue (though I don't know how easy or difficult it would be to implement or the realism) - pilot shifts over to one side, it gets louder on that side. Step opposite the louder side and you're flying coordinated.

[guncrasher]

I am still confused how u cannot tell by just looking at the horizon outside of your plane and by the rest of the sounds coming into your cockpit, and by visualizing the moves before u actually make it when you move your stick one way or another.  I dont want to squeeze the last 10% out of my plane, I just wanna make sure the other guy is ded before he even gets to squeeze that extra 10%. and somehow i can do this without even looking at the "ball".  I must be unique, but then again my skill level is only in the top 80%.   

semp

[boomerlu]

I must be unique, but then again my skill level is only in the top 80%.  

I invite you to duel Widewing who (from his post) DOES fly coordinated. And I invite you to find out what it actually means to fly coordinated and to find out the purpose of the ball (and hence the entire purpose of this thread) because after several posts explaining it (both by me and RTHolmes who posted a very helpful wiki link) you still don't get it.

And if you are going to bring score into this

Late War Tour 118 Fighter Scores for boomerlu
   Score     Rank  
Kills per Death + 1   2.86   228

Late War Tour 118 Fighter Scores for semp
   Score     Rank  
Kills per Death + 1   2.00   435

Note I don't actually fly coordinated either. Not worth it to practice at the moment since I have a twisty stick and no pedals - the twist axis doesn't have enough precision for it to be worthwhile.

[Stoney]

Sorry, none here. Caught me redhanded . All I've heard is anecdotal (yeah, take it with a grain of salt). But one can infer a lot from physics and simple real life situations (e.g., driving).

Certainly not about catching you red handed.  I merely wanted to know your real-life experience just in case it was better or different from my own.  My limited experience is not a panacea of stick and rudder skills...

I appreciate the real feedback here even if it contradicts my position to some degree. My only defense here is that those times you do remember (steeply banked) are precisely the main situations that I'm making this request for in the first place.

I failed to articulate it properly, but my point in discussing what I "feel" in the cockpit is this:  when I said I don't feel the effects of uncoordinated flight except during steep turns, I meant that I don't feel the yaw when flying uncoordinated, but I do notice when I put the correction in, that it helps the plane turn better. 

[boomerlu]

Certainly not about catching you red handed.  I merely wanted to know your real-life experience just in case it was better or different from my own.  My limited experience is not a panacea of stick and rudder skills...

I failed to articulate it properly, but my point in discussing what I "feel" in the cockpit is this:  when I said I don't feel the effects of uncoordinated flight except during steep turns, I meant that I don't feel the yaw when flying uncoordinated, but I do notice when I put the correction in, that it helps the plane turn better.  

Roger, I hear ya and thanks again for keeping this civil. Certainly I would like more info on this. For reference, this is what inspired me to think about asking for this feature in the first place:

"I did not at first expect such a large "side force" during skidding. You would not experience any of side forces as long as you fly straight, i.e. ball centered."
-Toshio Hijikata IJN

Page 3 on http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/naoaki_ooishi/My_Aviation_Experience.pdf

I also remember hearing about the primary reason for flying ball centered in commercial aviation - for passenger comfort (this implies that the passengers would have felt any skid/slip). I would certainly like to hear more about this from other pilots. I have a few friends I can ask and I may just do so.

As far as civilian flight vs WW2 fighters... consider that the inertial force for any given angle of Yaw slip is directly proportional to the speed. That means (given say 50-100 mph recreational aviation speeds vs 200-400 mph speeds in combat fighters) one will feel 2-8 times the forces in a WW2 fighter compared to a recreational aircraft. So far we have a pretty consistent picture across the quote I gave above and your personal experience. Given that commercial jets also cruise at around 500 mph, this analysis is also consistent with the need to fly ball centered in a jet airliner.

Edit: I'm not sure what causes the inertial force. However, if it's the extra drag from not flying straight into the wind, then the inertial force scales as the SQUARE of the speed. That means if you are flying three times as fast, you will feel nine times the inertial force from the same yaw angle. This is an even stronger case for how much extra "feel" would be involved in WW2 vs recreational planes.

[Widewing]

Granted. My question is then - why be opposed to making the learning curve less steep? Would you not have rather spent the countless hours practicing this doing something else, especially when this is the last 10% of ACM?

Also - what are the visual cues we currently have? Would certainly like to know what to look for in the future for all the practice I'll be doing... (note this is a serious question and a serious comment about practicing a lot, but the snide interpretation certainly does reinforce my point).

I'll add here one other possible criticism of the idea - I'm not sure if I'd remember to use it in a heated fight. I'm guessing that people who currently fly coordinated in AH battle "remember" to do so by muscle memory rather than by a conscious effort.

Muscle memory is always a factor with these types of sims due to the lack of physical feedback. However, you can see adverse yaw. The visual cues combined with the "feel" associated with muscle memory are prime factors. For example, if I jump into an aircraft I have not flown in a while, it will take me a few minutes to reacquire the "feel" for it's ragged edge. Once I have that back, I can fly it right to the edge of departure and remain there without crossing too far beyond that line. Tickling the edge of envelope without error is what separates the better pilots from the general population. I cannot overstate the value of high precision flight controller hardware in making this possible on a consistent basis. Likewise, smooth control input is of equal importance. There's an old adage that states: "Slow is smooth, and smooth is fast". Smooth, deliberate inputs minimize energy bleed and maximize retained energy.


My regards,

Widewing

[Strip]

I cant agree more about smooth subtle inputs...

I will pull a quick hard turning reversal, with 180 snap roll, and never move the controls more than a half inch.

Strip

[boomerlu]

Two things...

What are the cues you specifically see, WW? I really don't know what to look for in a turn so I wouldn't know what to correct for without actively looking at the ball.

Second... for the realism critics and more info on the degree of "feel"

"Is the rudder correction for adverse yaw necessary? Yes and no. Let’s take the "no" first. In our sims, adverse yaw effect is rarely modeled, and when it is, the effect is minor. In fact, you are just as likely to over control by adding too much rudder as you are likely to get it right...and the result of over correction is a slight skid...something which you will probably be blissfully unaware of! Why? Because we lack any "seat of the pants" feel when flying our sims. In the real world, particularly in WW2 era aircraft, misuse of rudder produced lateral G loads that the pilot could readily feel. "
- Andy Bush [http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_001e.html]

Credentials: Andy has USAF experience in F104s, F4s, and A10s. Note, we DO have adverse yaw modeled in AH.

Now, if slight overcorrection can be felt, then the same degree of undercorrection must certainly be feel-able as well.

[guncrasher]

I invite you to duel Widewing who (from his post) DOES fly coordinated. And I invite you to find out what it actually means to fly coordinated and to find out the purpose of the ball (and hence the entire purpose of this thread) because after several posts explaining it (both by me and RTHolmes who posted a very helpful wiki link) you still don't get it.

And if you are going to bring score into this

Note I don't actually fly coordinated either. Not worth it to practice at the moment since I have a twisty stick and no pedals - the twist axis doesn't have enough precision for it to be worthwhile.

lets say i take a test and there were 10 guys and i scored in the number 8th position with 1 being the highest, then i can say I scored in the top 80%  hardly something to brag about.  sorry for the confusion.  and btw score in ah means nothing.  skill doesnt get ranked and it means everything.   

semp

[boomerlu]

Woops read you backwards. Thought you meant you were in the top 20%. That would have made more sense. I have no idea why you brought up 80% then lol.

[guncrasher]

there was an old joke from back in the 80's about some young lady that had slept with a presidential candidate and her attorney was saying that she was pretty smart, since she graduated in the top 90% of her class.  I still use it just to see how many get confused.   

semp