Author Topic: Dan! Spitfire fuel question  (Read 1530 times)

Offline OOZ662

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 07:16:49 AM »
Worked just fine...both directly clicking and middle-clicking for a new tab. Found both the O'Club topic and your post. And tried to correct the spelling. :D
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 07:23:44 AM »
middle-clicking? :confused:

just type it in the box and hit the search button.
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline OOZ662

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2009, 07:26:11 AM »
Click down on your mousewheel button to open a link instead of right-clicking on it.In IE8 and FireFox it will open the page in a new tab instead of directly moving to it.

Like I said, no search weirdness on my end. Can search everything from everywhere. Interesting way for a topic to get hijacked though, eh? :D
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline RTHolmes

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2009, 07:33:18 AM »
ookay we're talking about the search box and button on each page, not the "advanced search" link, the advanced search works fine. like I said type in the box, hit the search button ...
71 (Eagle) Squadron

What most of us want to do is simply shoot stuff and look good doing it - Chilli

Offline OOZ662

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2009, 07:34:02 AM »
Well heck, I never even noticed that was there. :huh Too used to the old forum still, I guess.
A Rook who first flew 09/26/03 at the age of 13, has been a GL in 10+ Scenarios, and was two-time Points and First Annual 68KO Cup winner of the AH Extreme Air Racing League.

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2009, 10:42:49 PM »
I know that Spitfires were often modified, especially late in the war, to give a good amount of extra fuel installed.

Spitfire IX's in late 44 or 45 had about 75 IG of fuel installed in the rear fuselage and a Griffon rudder in order to ferry themselves from England to Belgium.

When exactly did Spit IX/XVI/XIV's start carrying this extra fuel in the rear fuselage and were these tanks self sealing? Did Spitfires ever go into combat or enter combat zones with these tanks installed?

I know that Spitfire Vs in Malta sometimes had no choice but to encounter enemies with their rear tanks still installed but those tanks, like the Mk.IX's in '45 were ferry tanks and were not self -sealing. Though I don't know if they were self-sealing just in case in the Mk.IX's.

Sorry I'm late.  This real life stuff is a pain :)

The Spit Vc's to Malta went with 90 gallon DTs but nothing else internal besides the usual 85 launched off carriers The number flown with the enlarged oil tank and extra internal fuel etc was minimal.  17 took off, 16 made it.  No combat involved.

As for the Spit IX and XVI with fuselage fuel tanks.  Apparently it was tested in February 45.  I don't know if it was used much.  The only photo I've ever seen is the same one showing up in different books of the initial test bird in February 45.  I can't for the life of me find a photo anywhere of an operational Spit IX or XVI with the set up and it would be easily seen by the fuel filler cap on the glass behind the canopy.  Photos of April/May 45 Spit XVIs and IXs do not show it at all.  30 or 45 gallon drop tanks seemed to be the norm.  As they were based on the continent I imagine it wasn't worth the time install those tanks in numbers.

I'd think the XIV's would have gotten them first as they burned fuel quicker, but I can't find any photos of wartime XIVs with the modification either.

This is the photo that shows up when the fuselage tank is mentioned.  The fuel filler cap etc is very visible.


This RCAF Spit XVI is taking off on the last day of the war.  45 gallon slipper tank, and no fuselage tank.  As I said, I've never seen a photo of the installation on a combat Spit.  That doesn't mean it didn't happen obviously, but you'd think it would show up more.  I've got tons of book on the Spit and haven't seen one yet with the installation despite looking. 
Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Angus

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2009, 09:58:01 AM »
Dan, do you know how many aircraft were ferred as a total?
You mention a flight where 16 out of 17 made it. I have an account from Johnny Johnsson where all made it AFAIK, but I have come across some accounts of Hurricanes doing those long legs.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Guppy35

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2009, 11:49:56 PM »
Dan, do you know how many aircraft were ferred as a total?
You mention a flight where 16 out of 17 made it. I have an account from Johnny Johnsson where all made it AFAIK, but I have come across some accounts of Hurricanes doing those long legs.

The long range Spits were the tail end of the Spitfire train to Malta after the issue had really been settled.  16 of 17 made it.  The image below is from Alfred Price's "Spitfire-A Documentary History" that has a nice section on the Malta Spitfires.  I hadn't seen anything mentioning Hurricanes doing the same thing.  You have a source for that?

Dan/CorkyJr
8th FS "Headhunters

Offline Angus

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 06:36:10 AM »
Thank you for this Dan. I'll take some time in typing out of one of Johnny Johnsson's books about the Malta runs. Just have to find it first.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Re: Dan! Spitfire fuel question
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2009, 07:06:58 AM »
Ah, here is what I have. "Full circle" p. 190.
He mentions the Spitfires being cast off some 600 miles (nautical) from the islands. The Hurricane squadron flew off some months before April 1942, from HMS Argus. Their fate was bad, for there was a mix-up of nautical miles and English miles, so only 4 out of 12 made it. (As well as 2 aircraft from the fleet air arm). The gallons left in the tanks were 12, 4, 3, and 2 in those.
Johnsson's trip was from the USS Wasp, which launched 48 Spit Vc's, oh yeah, armed to the teeth with quad 20mm cannons. Squadrons were 601 and 603 RAF. The slipper tank was a releaseble one and contained 90 gallons. The Wasp allowed for somewhat a safer takeoff than the British carriers, since the deck was much longer. And, - a much bigger ship.
It came to my attention that the takeoff on the carrier deck was achieved with absolutely full power. Through the gate. Sort of fresh in my mind from reading up on the 109E, which already had a troublesome swing in the takeoff due to engine power several hundred horsepowers less than a Spit V. Anyway, the Spit did indeed "swing" from it, but not enough to skid off unless you were clumsy. The first aircraft skidded off about half way down the deck, but was airborne and made it.
These Spitfires took off with no flaps, - there were no wooden sticks enabling them the half-position down as was used on the shorter escort carrier. So, a takeoff from half the deck with no flaps and an overloaded aircraft is quite a thing really!!!
47 of 48 made it. I am sure that one had to turn back due to fuel line problems and land on deck without arrestor hook, only to leave again next day for Gibraltar, but I don't see it in the text right now.
There were plans to intercept them, but they pulled the wholething off. German ground control also tried to bluff them but without success.
Quite a thing those Malta rides ;)
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)