WWI Plane Set Question

[SKJohn]

It truly was.  I remember a letter to Flying magazine many years ago, in which the author said something like this:

"I keep reading these accounts of World War I pilots flying at 15,000 feet, sometimes 20,000 feet, trying to take photos or shoot down the planes taking the photos.  We have to go on oxygen at 10,000 feet [hey, I told you it was an old issue of the magazine].  Were these guys lying or did they have leather lungs?"

The answer posted by the magazine was, "They must have had leather lungs."

- oldman

It is my opinion that the men who flew and fought in those early aircraft had other body parts that were made of leather - or perhaps brass . . .

[Simba]

McCudden sometimes flew his personally adapted SE5a to over 20,000 feet to attack high-flying German recce two-seaters. Remarkable man, McCudden, he went from Boy Soldier to Major, VC and all the other gongs in those five years; the RAF lost a potential leader when he stalled in and died in 1918.

An interesting fact: McCudden had a hard time being accepted by 56 Squadron RFC. Although an ace, he'd scored all his victories until then as that great rarity, a Sergeant Pilot raised from the ranks - and the public school snob 'officers and gentlemen' didn't like that one bit.

Another: McCudden was almost certainly Manfred Richthofen's fifteenth 'kill'. On 27 December 1916 the Red Baron reported downing a 'Vickers two-seater' in the afternoon near Arras. No FE2 was lost that afternoon. The only possible aircraft he could have engaged was the DH2 of No.29 Squadron RFC flown by McCudden, who had disengaged, 'turned on my back and dived vertically in a slow spin and in this way regained our lines' after his Lewis had jammed in a fight with 'a HA'. Richthofen's 'kill' came down over the British side of the lines and was 'verified' by two AA batteries. Although McCudden reported the last thing he'd seen as he crossed the lines to safety was some FE2s being engaged by hostile machines, all those Fees returned safely. Richthofen had expected to be awarded the Pour le Merite after his eighth kill but the requirement had been upped to sixteen; maybe his 'throat-ache' desire for Germany's highest gallantry award affected his judgement that day? And he should be credited with only 79 kills and not the 80 that made him the highest-scoring pilot of WWI? This info is to be found in 'Under The Guns Of The Red Baron' by N.Franks, H.Gilbin and N.McCrery; 1995, Grub Street, London, ISBN 1-898697 27 2, pages 46-50.

   

 

[zarkov]

Over-claiming was common in the heat of battle.  As the war went on, it became pretty unsafe to follow a kill down and confirm for sure that it went down for good.  There are a number of claims on Richthofen's record that don't jibe with official Entente losses in the area that he operated.  I'm not singling Richthofen out, merely using him as an example of how even seasoned pilots made mistakes in claiming kills due to youthful exuberance and adrenaline.

As for the "Vickers" moniker; the Germans called all pushers Vickers, just like they often called all British single-seater tractor scouts "Sopwiths".  When the Germans faced a lot of DH/2's, they often just called them "Vickers" (after the Vickers gunbus).

[Anaxogoras]

The total kill tallies of the WW1 aces are generally dubious, on both sides too.

[Furball]

An interesting fact: McCudden had a hard time being accepted by 56 Squadron RFC. Although an ace, he'd scored all his victories until then as that great rarity, a Sergeant Pilot raised from the ranks - and the public school snob 'officers and gentlemen' didn't like that one bit.
 

Where did you learn this?  McCudden was invited to fly with 56 Squadron.  If there was a snobby attitude towards him then he would never have been nominated for so many awards?

(BTW - i am not saying you are wrong, just intrigued to where you heard this)

[Furball]

The total kill tallies of the WW1 aces are generally dubious, on both sides too.

Mannock often never bothered to submit claims, it is quite possible that he would have been the highest scoring WWI ace had he done.  The opposite was Billy Bishop, who i have heard from the mouth of an expert that the vast vast majority of his claims were dubious.  Whether that is true or not i don't know.

[Anaxogoras]

Mannock seems to have been a very complicated man.  I'd like to read more about him than the short article at wikipedia.

[Furball]

Mannock seems to have been a very complicated man.  I'd like to read more about him than the short article at wikipedia.

He never gained the public fame of Hawker, Ball or McCudden for some reason.  From what i know, he had a very hard upbringing.  He was an amazing flight leader and tutor, but was ruthless when it came to battle.  I recall that once he found a German training flight, shot down the instructor, and then hunted down each of the students - i think he got something like 6 - 7 kills. 

He would often share his kills with his flight, and as i mentioned above, not even bother to claim a lot of them.  His worse fear was going down in flames and carried a revolver with him on patrol so he could 'end it', and this happened to him after he was brought down by ground-fire.  He was regarded, along with McCudden, as the best flight leader the RAF had in the war.

[Treize69]

I've read several sources that say Lufbery could have had at least twice his final score (say 35+) had he actually claimed all his victories and gotten credit for ones shot down with witnesses on the German side of the lines. How much of that is truth and how much is post-war 'memory additions' by those involved, who can say, but I imagine there were others on both sides of the war who might have actually gotten more than history credits them with, not less. Too bad he's remembered for a defensive maneuver of dubious effectiveness that he neither invented noer ever advocated...

But I'm still a fan of Nungesser, even if it did start with a fondness for his personal insignia.

[Furball]

But I'm still a fan of Nungesser, even if it did start with a fondness for his personal insignia.

You and me both!  

There is a great story about when Nungesser turned up at Escadrille N.65.

On the day that he reported to the Escadrille N.65, Nungesser first 'beat up' Nancy in a most spectacular fashion, flying in and out of church steeples and tall buildings, looping over the place and charging up and down the boulevard at an altitude of 30 feet.  By the time he landed, an official complaint from the townsfolk had already been laid on the commanding officer's desk.  The latter, somewhat acidly, told his newest recruit to continue his aerobatics to enemy territory.  Nothing daunted, Nungesser had his aircraft refuelled and forced several of his colleagues to accompany him to the nearest German airfield where; covered by his comrades, he repeated his performance.

While he was a Hussar, he found a German staff car behind enemy lines, shot the occupants, stole it, drove it through no man's land (while under friendly fire) and they wanted to give him the car along with the Military Medal as a reward.  He snubbed both and told them that the only prize he wanted was to join the air service.

[Anaxogoras]

Why is no other aircraft but the N17 ever associated with Nungesser?  Surely he must have moved on to the Spad at some point?

[Furball]

Why is no other aircraft but the N17 ever associated with Nungesser?  Surely he must have moved on to the Spad at some point?

The Nieuport was his personal aircraft.  He pretty much had a roving commission and went where he wanted from what i have read, his posting to N.65 was just nominal.

[Furball]

Another amazing pilot you may be interested in reading up on is Rudolf Von Eschwege, or the 'Eagle of the Aegean', he has an amazing story.  So typical of the first world war.  He was pretty much a one man, very determined, air force.

[Anaxogoras]

The Nieuport was his personal aircraft.  He pretty much had a roving commission and went where he wanted from what i have read, his posting to N.65 was just nominal.

Sure, but the N17 was obsolescent by the end of the war.  Surely he wasn't still flying it in 1918?

[Furball]

Sure, but the N17 was obsolescent by the end of the war.  Surely he wasn't still flying it in 1918?

IIRC it was pretty heavily modified.  The N.17 was Ball's favourite and personal aircraft too, AFAIK he would go out lonesharking in it while assigned to 56 in the SE.

<Edit> Almost forgot, Nungesser spent a long, long time in and out of hospital towards the end of the war, i don't know a huge amount about him, but i don't think he did much flying in the last year or so of the war.  I could be wrong.