Best Attack Position to Kill Bombers

[RTHolmes]

I like getting on their six, going about the same speed as they are, then only firing when I'm 1.2k out.

+1 forgot about this one, easily the most fun way to kill buffs

[SirFrancis]

I read a book written from Walther Dahl (http://www.luftwaffe.cz/dahl.html), where he described how he and his flight attacked allied bombers. He flew the FW190.

He used two kind of approaches.

1. Head on (slightly above bomber flight path)
2. from behind (6 o´clock) -> here usually slightly below bomber flight path)

Attacking from the side was forbidden, because of the little chances to hit.

When attacking from the front, he opened fire at 500m. The pass was low over the bombers. He says that this method was very difficult and only pilots with good nerves could manage this. But it was more effective as from behind. First because of the moral impact on the bomber pilots. Secondly because the energy of the bullets was higher because you had add to there bullet speed the air speed of the bomber.

I personally prefer the 2/10 option as Lusche described it.

SF

[Chalenge]

You do know that the calibrated airspeed that B-17s and B-24s preferred was 210? Add that to the 354 TAS of the Bf 109 (for instance) and you get 564 which will not add a lot of additional energy (projectiles are not often measured in mph). While it is likely a fighter pilot would think that he was causing a drop in morale I know for a fact most bomber gunners didnt worry about fighters unless they fell behind the group and got singled out. FlaK on the other hand was always a problem and AAA would have even the most courageous hiding in the nearest corner with his flak jacket wrapped tightly around him. Nearly every sortie every plane would catch fire in one way or another. The ball turret gunners number one fear was not getting hit by fighters but being left in the ball when everyone abandoned ship! Oxygen lines getting hit by flak was a bigger problem than fighters and accounted for more deaths too. And then if they had to bail over the target they had to worry about civilians taking matters into their own hands or gestapo executions or other soldiers just shooting them. The Russians were just as hard on them because they didnt know how to tell an American apart from a German and if the American was a POW the Russians would assume they were collaborators. Thats if they could even get out of the plane or had the courage to bail out or were not killed in their chutes.

No fighters were way down the list of things to worry about.

[mechanic]

Good post there, I would have also thought that a big fear held by most was having to face sobering up within a few hours and doing their job after blitzing their sadness away in the mess hall each night. Thankfully we don't have to fly sober at any hour in aceshigh 

[Anaxogoras]

I concur.
I think 999000 would agree

Except he can kill you from no matter which angle you choose.  I've set up attacks on him that would be 100% safe on other bomber pilots, only to end up in the tower to kill one drone.

[CAP1]

Good post there, I would have also thought that a big fear held by most was having to face sobering up within a few hours and doing their job after blitzing their sadness away in the mess hall each night. Thankfully we don't have to fly sober at any hour in aceshigh 

i think if i were in the position of any single member of those bomber crews......my single biggest fear would be the knowledge that we would be in enemy territory for close to 1/2 of our time in the air, with only 1 or 2 minutes of firing time per gun.

[Chalenge]

By most accounts the guns on the bombers would be fired at most for mere seconds. In fact most bombers that had fuel problems or situation that might require ditching or landing out would toss their guns and ammunition (and anything else they could) overboard. There are probably thousands of 50 cals in the Adriatic.

[CAP1]

By most accounts the guns on the bombers would be fired at most for mere seconds. In fact most bombers that had fuel problems or situation that might require ditching or landing out would toss their guns and ammunition (and anything else they could) overboard. There are probably thousands of 50 cals in the Adriatic.

i had read a book by john comer......called combat crew. pretty dam good book.

it still strikes me when i read things like "we had an older pilot..he looked to be about 23 years old".

 there were things in there, telling of gunners sneaking extra ammo on board for the longer missions....lot of things about "hung" bombs, and of new pilots that would "jockey" to hold formation, thus giving that fact away to the german pilots.

[Chalenge]

there were things in there, telling of gunners sneaking extra ammo on board for the longer missions....lot of things about "hung" bombs, and of new pilots that would "jockey" to hold formation, thus giving that fact away to the german pilots.

I have to think that the attacking pilots were not that deep into analyzing their targets but I can understand why a bomber pilot or his crew would think they were.

[CAP1]

I have to think that the attacking pilots were not that deep into analyzing their targets but I can understand why a bomber pilot or his crew would think they were.

 if i recall from reading it, the new pilots would "jockey" and could be at times as much as 40-50 feet out of position. it had to do with the turbulence.
 the "older" more experienced pilots knew what to do to hold a rock steady position.

 you're more than likely right......but it would be a definite tell tale, seeing #2 in a box jockeying around.....in and out, side to side, up n down......it would become pretty obvious i would think..........

stilll,.....reading what these guys did..........well........just .......dam......gotta respect the hell outta them for riding in those big aluminum death traps. 

[Chalenge]

The maintenance report on 'Sweet Ada' that stated they removed 116 lbs of shrapnel about says it all. You have to wonder how the crew even lived through that!

[Stormdag]

Is it just me or did shuffler just repeat the same thing as above 

[jdbecks]

this is how I do it, I sure love 262s




Ive died a fair few times to gunners, having the patientence to set up the attack and get into postion is the most inportant factor imho.

[RTHolmes]

By most accounts the guns on the bombers would be fired at most for mere seconds.

yup, closure rates were so much higher than in AH that a couple of seconds was all you generally had to aquire, get guns on and lead an inb fighter.

The maintenance report on 'Sweet Ada' ... stated they removed 116 lbs of shrapnel ...

jeez 

[CAP1]

The maintenance report on 'Sweet Ada' that stated they removed 116 lbs of shrapnel about says it all. You have to wonder how the crew even lived through that!

one of the local parts suppliers i deal with, i tend to bs with the counter guys a lot. as it turns out, jim's dad was a bombardier on a b17 near the end of the war. i thinnk he flew 7 or 8 missions.

 he came to my CAP squadron, to talk to the kids.....all of us.. , but mainly the young kids. he told them of his training, how they got to their base, etc.
 then he started telling them of a mission over italy(i think it was italy), where the flak was particularly heavy on the way in and out.
 he was amazed that there weren't too many fighters, even when they weren't in the flak. as he was telling them of the malfunctioning chin turret, he reached into his pocket, and pulls out a small bundle...looks like a reg. he unwraps it carefully, and holds up a piece of shrapnel.
 it couldn't have been more than 2" long, and not a full inch wide at any one point. there was nowhere to hold it without touching a very sharp edge. judging by it's size, one would only expect it to have weighed an ounce or 2.
 friggin thing weighed much more than it looked like. then as it was being passed around, he explained that the malfunctioning chin turret was caused by this shrapnel. said turret also saved his life, according to the crew chief of the plane.
 
 the guy came there in his dress uniform from the 40's.

one of the coolest guys any of us ever met.