Author Topic: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16  (Read 7415 times)

Offline Masherbrum

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #90 on: November 18, 2009, 10:43:14 AM »
not the wing loading of the 190 i expressed my doubts about BandZ but go ahead and continue with your fairie tales ...

suspension of disbelief is easy for you as your arguments clearly show ...

pretty comical you suggesting that any a8 hitech ever modeled has been correct, shows how much you pay attention.

do tell me which a8 do we have? i mean relative to a real a8 that is.

enough of you  ...

can't wait to see your 6000bhp 15,000lb aerobatic plane with the 300 foot wingspan ...

obviously flying circles around the extras ...

let me know when you sort that out ok  :aok

t

I've seen you fly in the MA and you rely on others, more so than your own "skill".   I'm curious as to why you're still ripping on HTC's "accuracy" when your "skills" are the crux of your "knowledge". 

Let me know when you want to go to the DA ok   :aok
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Offline thorsim

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #91 on: November 18, 2009, 11:03:58 AM »
fairie tales sir refers to bandz and the usual suspects once again arguing with things that others never said as if they had in order to undermine the other poster in the current argument ...

i ONCE AGAIN challenge BandZ or any other of the usual suspects to find where i complained about the wing loading of the a8 anywhere on any board ever.  when they are unable to do that please take issue with them and their freewheeling habit of misquoting misrepresenting exaggerating and flat out making up things they say other people have said.  

there ought to be a rule about that huh skuzzy

as far as my issues with the combat flaps that BandZ and others brought up ...

why don't you take your "flaps fix everything" to another board where there aren't so many with a vested interest in the status quo here and see what happens ...

try this place

http://www.ww2aircraft.net

there is an example of one of you flap fans in here someplace

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-fighter-iii-614.html

let me know when you guys do i would very much like to see the result.

as far as why i think smaller and lighter is a better way to go in a pure fighter ...



argue with this guy and his friends, i'm no longer in the mood ...

t


fairy tales? thats pretty rich coming from someone who posts vague nonsense like:

so .. the 16 has better (instantanious/sustained?) turn (radius/rate?) than F4U because it has higher total drag? wth? :confused:

I'm more inclined to listen to BnZs at this point ...


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Offline thorsim

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #92 on: November 18, 2009, 11:10:55 AM »
i work to my advantages, numbers are pretty close to the top ...

interesting that you think not being stupid makes it inappropriate to discuss things here like HTCs accuracy ...

t

I've seen you fly in the MA and you rely on others, more so than your own "skill".   I'm curious as to why you're still ripping on HTC's "accuracy" when your "skills" are the crux of your "knowledge". 

Let me know when you want to go to the DA ok   :aok
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #93 on: November 18, 2009, 11:11:44 AM »
fairie tales sir refers to bandz and the usual suspects once again arguing with things that others never said as if they had in order to undermine the other poster in the current argument ...

i ONCE AGAIN challenge BandZ or any other of the usual suspects to find where i complained about the wing loading of the a8 anywhere on any board ever.  when they are unable to do that please take issue with them and their freewheeling habit of misquoting misrepresenting exaggerating and flat out making up things they say other people have said.  

there ought to be a rule about that huh skuzzy

as far as my issues with the combat flaps that BandZ and others brought up ...

why don't you take your "flaps fix everything" to another board where there aren't so many with a vested interest in the status quo here and see what happens ...

try this place

http://www.ww2aircraft.net

there is an example of one of you flap fans in here someplace

http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/best-fighter-iii-614.html

let me know when you guys do i would very much like to see the result.

as far as why i think smaller and lighter is a better way to go in a pure fighter ...

(Image removed from quote.)

argue with this guy and his friends, i'm no longer in the mood ...

t

Funny, I rack up kills turn fighting in an A8.   I've never once deployed flaps, then I rarely use flaps in ANY plane.  
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #94 on: November 18, 2009, 11:13:03 AM »
i work to my advantages, numbers are pretty close to the top ...

interesting that you think not being stupid makes it inappropriate to discuss things here like HTCs accuracy ...

t


I'll put Quality over Quantity every time.   I never used the word "stupid" in my previous reply, so it is very ironic coming from you.   You're trying to come across as an "expert" in the A8 and I'm pretty sure I can hand you your own posterior in it.  

You have "excuses" and in turn, try to put the blame on HTC.   It's your own shortcomings that are the direct result of your "beef" with HTC.   
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:14:47 AM by Masherbrum »
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Offline BnZs

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #95 on: November 18, 2009, 11:39:56 AM »
Showing a picture of John Boyd is very funny in this context Thorsim. Because what Boyd emphasized, among other things, was the importance of low lift loading and and high thrust-weight in a fighter, concepts you clearly do not comprehend.

By your twisted logic, the F-104 ought to be far better at maneuver combat than the F-15, because it is almost exactly half the weight.

F-104G
Empty weight: 14,000 lb (6,350 kg)
Loaded weight: 20,640 lb (9,365 kg)

F-15C
Empty weight: 28,000 lb (12,700 kg)
Loaded weight: 44,500 lb (20,200 kg)

So, since the Eagle is literally double the weight of the Starfighter, the latter should fly circles around it in maneuver combat, correct?

The only actual combat advantage of small size *in and of itself* is that a smaller aircraft is harder to pick up visually. If you had argued that it may be more practical and cost effective to build a 20,000 lbs airplane with an engine producing 20,000 lbs of thrust than a 40,000 airplane with two engines producing 40,000 lbs of thrust, that would have been one thing. But no, you specifically stated that absolute size and weight have an effect on maneuver performance independent of the ratios of weight and drag to lift and thrust, and that is absolute hogwash.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:55:58 AM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #96 on: November 18, 2009, 11:45:37 AM »

i ONCE AGAIN challenge BandZ or any other of the usual suspects to find where i complained about the wing loading of the a8 anywhere on any board ever.  when they are unable to do that please take issue

You just said it wasn't modeled correctly. Tell me then, exactly what do you think is wrong with the A8?

why don't you take your "flaps fix everything" to another board where there aren't so many with a vested interest in the status quo here and see what happens ...

Factually, the Corsair's flaps allow it to fly as slow as 70-75mph IAS. Factually, turn radius is defined mostly by the minimum flying speed an aircraft can maintain. Therefore, it plays out that the F4U has a very competitive turn radius against much of the opposition. You don't like this fact, you have some 100% wrong idea that because of the airplanes absolute weight it should be an unmaneuverable brick, but you cannot come up with a single valid problem with HTC's physics modeling. So we get what we have here right now...


[/quote]
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline hitech

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #97 on: November 18, 2009, 11:55:35 AM »
Funny how a empty and low fuel b17 will out turn most fighters at altitude.

Thorsim: You really do try to use general statements and rules of thumb to try prove a point that can not be done with rules of thumb.

You seem to believe that aerobatic planes are designed small so they perform better. While as a general statement that idea is some what true, it is not true when it comes to each detail. Increasing the wing span of an extra would make it better turn fighter. So we have added weight and added size, but increased turn rate.  Of course speed ,climb,roll rate were sacrificed but not turn radius.

You are trying to argue specifics about 2 planes with no real fact but simply general concepts. This really does not work.

As far as I can see your complete argument is a spit 16 should win a angles fight against an f4u1d because the spit is 1/2 lighter but not 1/2 as big. This is a complete nonsensical argument and why many here are arguing with you. Again all this would take is some real testing and research to see whats up. I have not looked at all the details, but a quick glance.

At 20 degrees flaps an f4u1 has a slower power off stall speed than a spit 16 with no flaps. This translate to better lift to weight ratio, an hence a better turn radius. Now if a pilot in an f4u goes very nose low with 30 degrees flaps, if the spit tries to follow with no flaps, the spit will probably have a big problem because it will not be as dragy as the f4u and it would tend to overshoot the smaller turning f4u1. Once on the deck, things would start to change.

HiTech



« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 11:59:01 AM by hitech »

Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #98 on: November 18, 2009, 12:07:22 PM »
Funny, I rack up kills turn fighting in an A8.   I've never once deployed flaps, then I rarely use flaps in ANY plane.  

Thorsim doesn't understand how flaps work and he's going by how he thinks they should work.  He asked for real life examples of pilots using flaps in combat and he was provided with them but still refuses to believe it because it doesn't mesh with how he thinks they should work.  He cries how the modeling of the flaps is incorrect but each and every time has failed to show any proof how the modeling is incorrect.  The crux of his hidden agenda is that he wants players to fly like he does, which would result in an arena full of timid pilots. 

If you look at each of his threads he's posted in complaining about the flight model, his little agenda always rears its ugly, timid head and never has he provided any proof of any errors in the flight model.  He's just another version of the old Luftwhiner.


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Offline thorsim

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #99 on: November 18, 2009, 12:26:22 PM »
i never once said turn fighting here hitech did i?

i said maneuver fight.

now hitech do you mean to say that the light b17 will out maneuver these fighters within the fighters operational altitudes? if that is not what you are saying i fail to see it's relevance to this discussion.  

not that relevance seems to stop anyone here.  lets see we have a thread about the spit 16 and the f4u where people have brought up the f104 f15 mig 17 a8 oh and the b17 among several others to discuss the relationship between the spit and the hog.

...

i too could post the extremities of the envelopes to find the exceptions in that 5% of the envelope in order to contradict the general statements others make.

i could argue my point with planes 20+ years apart in design and world away in mission purpose to try and dispute the obvious.

however i do not see the point in that as it would not disprove anything, would it?

i don't because there are exceptions to every rule, stating an exception to a rule does not disprove a rule, does it?

it seems to me that if you really look at your examples the good spitfire pilot would not tail chase and solve his angle with another maneuver and let the hog continue to bleed his energy until he finishes the hog off, or until the hog augers finally having used up all its energy because he has to spend more than the spit to stay in the fight ...

because he is heavier and therefore less able to maneuver and preserve his energy as well as the spitfire.

which is my point.

i never said wingloading, powerloading, liftloading, were inconsequential.

however size, weight, mass and how they effect acceleration/momentum is a factor as well and should be taken into account.

others took issue with that for some reason, and here we are.

again ...

t

Funny how a empty and low fuel b17 will out turn most fighters at altitude.

Thorsim: You really do try to use general statements and rules of thumb to try prove a point that can not be done with rules of thumb.

You seem to believe that aerobatic planes are designed small so they perform better. While as a general statement that idea is some what true, it is not true when it comes to each detail. Increasing the wing span of an extra would make it better turn fighter. So we have added weight and added size, but increased turn rate.  Of course speed ,climb,roll rate were sacrificed but not turn radius.

You are trying to argue specifics about 2 planes with no real fact but simply general concepts. This really does not work.

As far as I can see your complete argument is a spit 16 should win a angles fight against an f4u1d because the spit is 1/2 lighter but not 1/2 as big. This is a complete nonsensical argument and why many here are arguing with you. Again all this would take is some real testing and research to see whats up. I have not looked at all the details, but a quick glance.

At 20 degrees flaps an f4u1 has a slower power off stall speed than a spit 16 with no flaps. This translate to better lift to weight ratio, an hence a better turn radius. Now if a pilot in an f4u goes very nose low with 30 degrees flaps, if the spit tries to follow with no flaps, the spit will probably have a big problem because it will not be as dragy as the f4u and it would tend to overshoot the smaller turning f4u1. Once on the deck, things would start to change.

HiTech






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Offline thorsim

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #100 on: November 18, 2009, 12:27:30 PM »
once again not exactly true is it? 

Thorsim doesn't understand how flaps work and he's going by how he thinks they should work.  He asked for real life examples of pilots using flaps in combat and he was provided with them but still refuses to believe it because it doesn't mesh with how he thinks they should work.  He cries how the modeling of the flaps is incorrect but each and every time has failed to show any proof how the modeling is incorrect.  The crux of his hidden agenda is that he wants players to fly like he does, which would result in an arena full of timid pilots. 

If you look at each of his threads he's posted in complaining about the flight model, his little agenda always rears its ugly, timid head and never has he provided any proof of any errors in the flight model.  He's just another version of the old Luftwhiner.


ack-ack
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Offline hitech

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #101 on: November 18, 2009, 12:53:10 PM »
Quote
i said maneuver fight.

Ok I must be daft, because I have no idea what a maneuver fight is.

Offline BnZs

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #102 on: November 18, 2009, 12:58:00 PM »


however size, weight, mass and how they effect acceleration/momentum is a factor as well and should be taken into account.




And here you repeat the fallacy yet again. Acceleration will have everything to do with the plane's ratio of thrust to weight and drag, and absolutely nothing to do with what the plane registers on the scale.

I bring up the F-104 vs. F-15 because according to the sort of logic you have repeatedly stated in this thread, the F-15 must turn less well and bleed more energy in maneuvers, because it is more than double the weight.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 01:04:16 PM by BnZs »
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline thorsim

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #103 on: November 18, 2009, 01:04:11 PM »
then why is your example soo far off my point sir?

Ok I must be daft, because I have no idea what a maneuver fight is.
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Offline hitech

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Re: How does the F4U-1A beat the Spit 16
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2009, 01:07:48 PM »
Thorism wrote:

Quote
because he is heavier and therefore less able to maneuver

Complete and utter kaka.

Please define the term maneuver in the contexts of your sentence above.



HiTech