Author Topic: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting  (Read 47309 times)

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2009, 12:57:10 PM »
Take a real close look at the diameter of the shells in that clip...you will notice that the "apparent" depth of that tray is not big enough for those shells to fit in a double layer. Looks very much like a rifle magazine...you don't load them staggered but when you insert the ammo in it they stagger themselves in the mag.
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline jawbone

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7
      • http://www.freewebs.com/yanksfan001/
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #31 on: November 19, 2009, 03:07:56 PM »
In this photo (appears to be same guy and plane) it looks like the tray has already been loaded?



Video of gun in use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=
"Oooh oooh  I'm flying a hurricane, it's a watermelon plane, I'm rubbish, my mum goes chippie in her slippers"

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #32 on: November 19, 2009, 04:14:56 PM »
In this photo (appears to be same guy and plane) it looks like the tray has already been loaded?

(Image removed from quote.)

Video of gun in use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=

He looks bummed that he as an extra clip he couldn't load.

ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Rich46yo

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7358
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #33 on: November 19, 2009, 05:12:19 PM »
In this photo (appears to be same guy and plane) it looks like the tray has already been loaded?

(Image removed from quote.)

Video of gun in use
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&mode=related&search=

Looks to me like the top of the tray has been loaded and now he's going to load the bottom. Thats what I see.
Maybe the answer is in the gun cam videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOXrfBZoLE&feature=related Some look like more then 6 shots fired to me. How does a guy take out 4 tanks in one mission with only 6 rounds? 12 in a day?

Quote
The 37 mm BK3.7 had better luck, but was very heavy and carried only a dozen rounds. Both the HS129B and Ju87 carried these weapons, and the Ju87G with two of them under the wings proved very effective in the hands of a good pilot.
http://www.avalanchepress.com/StopTank.php

Actually it looks like there is an ammo tray on each side of the cannon. Like in the very first frames of this vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cU6OK1zSxKg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ef19vs%2Ese%2Fe107%5Fplugins%2Fforum%2Fforum%5Fviewtopic%2Ephp%3F250

So yeah, Lusche is right. As am I.

"flying the aircraft of the Red Star"

Offline Lusche

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 23888
      • Last.FM Profile
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #34 on: November 19, 2009, 05:15:53 PM »
Actually it looks like there is an ammo tray on each side of the cannon.


I don't think that's a second tray. It's much smaller:



Only question I'd have.   I'm not familiar with this gun, but maybe they only carried 6 and the casings cycled through to the bottom, or did they eject?

The Flak 18 was fed from the left and ejected the empty clip to the right. (Note that the guns was mounted upside down under the 87's wing) So the "2nd tray" is actually where the empty clip goes to?
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 05:29:34 PM by Lusche »
Steam: DrKalv
E:D Snailman

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #35 on: November 19, 2009, 05:24:44 PM »
Maybe it's some sort of vortex generator, to offset the drag on the other side of the pod, to prevent the aim being thrown off?

In this picture it looks like it's lower, and that the shell ejection port is right above it:


Offline stephen

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 744
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #36 on: November 19, 2009, 05:50:42 PM »
Mabey its another magazine... :aok
Spell checker is for Morrons

Offline Krusty

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26745
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2009, 06:37:38 PM »
 :huh


Yes... another magazine...

... on the wrong side of the gun...

... blocking the shell EJECTION port (ejection, not intake)....

.... too small to actually hold any rounds in it....

So yes, "maybe it's another magazine"....  :rolleyes:


The only alternative I can think of is that there were 6 rounds in the "chute", but the gun didn't start right there. The tube was hollowed out, and the gun sat in the very center of it. You can fit 1, maybe 2 more between where the chute ends and the gun begins, plus another in the barrel ready to fire... That would be 6 + 3 maybe, 9 per gun. This is backed up by the ammo loading holding a stick of 6 in his hand, but you being able to see rounds inside the chute opening already...

It's all a matter of how they were packed and fed into the gun, I guess. The MG/FF ammo drum carried 60 rounds, but later in the war was repacked to hold up to 90 rounds in the same space. It's possible there were 12 rounds per gun, just not in a single "stick" like you might think.

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2009, 07:05:53 PM »

Maybe the answer is in the gun cam videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOXrfBZoLE&feature=related Some look like more then 6 shots fired to me. How does a guy take out 4 tanks in one mission with only 6 rounds? 12 in a day?



If each gondola carried 6 rounds, that would make 12 total.  The math is easy to figure out then.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2009, 07:20:28 PM »
It's all a matter of how they were packed and fed into the gun, I guess. The MG/FF ammo drum carried 60 rounds, but later in the war was repacked to hold up to 90 rounds in the same space. It's possible there were 12 rounds per gun, just not in a single "stick" like you might think.

<sigh>

No, they couldn't repack 60-round drum to contain 90 rounds. There were different sized drums that could hold different amounts of ammo...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 07:23:14 PM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2009, 07:56:52 PM »
Some good stuff regarding the BK 3.7:

http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/b/Bordwaffen/Bordkanonen/Bordkanone%203,7%20cm/bordkanone%2037.html#Vorbemerkung



I've understood the G-2 could carry 12 rounds per gun in coupled magazines (6 rounds each), however in the picture above it is clearly seen that one magazine contains atleast 7 rounds...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 08:04:24 PM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2009, 08:14:51 PM »
http://www.cockpitinstrumente.de/archiv/Dokumente/ABC/b/Bordwaffen/Bordkanonen/Bordkanone%203,7%20cm/bordkanone%2037.html#Vorbemerkung
Interesting link. My German isn't so good so it took a bit to skim through the article but this is what I got out of it...

The only mention of 12 rounds in an aircraft installation I see is here;

"Zuerst wurden einige He 129 B-2-Flugzeuge als Schlachtflieger außer der Bewaffnung von zwei MG 151/20 mit je einer BK 3,7 und 12 Schuß Munition ausgerüstet und mit Erfolg erprobt."

Which I think means something to the affect of 'First used in the He 129B-2 attack aircraft with 2 MG151/20, along with a BK 37 and 12 rounds of ammunition.' (not sure what 'mit Erfolg erprobt' means?)
However I think the BK 37 in the He 129 was in a much different installation than the Ju 87 so that's not really relevant.

also...

Munition und Magazin (Pz.Gr.): (munitions and magazines (panzer grenadier= armor piercing high explosive?))
(jede BK hatte 2 Magazine mit je 6 Schuss) (every BK has (? what is hatte?) two magazines with 6 rounds. I don't know where the second magazine goes in the Ju87 though.)

Offline Wmaker

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5743
      • Lentolaivue 34 website
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2009, 08:32:12 PM »
I've understood the G-2 could carry 12 rounds per gun in coupled magazines (6 rounds each), however in the picture above it is clearly seen that one magazine contains atleast 7 rounds...

Actually, it looks like that 7th round isn't attached to the magazine but is the 1st round of a magazine already in the "feed chute" which the armorer is about to shove forward with the second 6-round magazine.


This picture pretty much shows it. The pod/the feed chute actually house two 6-round magazines, one after the other. Now that I think about it, I remember reading about this from somewhere. At first they only used 6 rpg and later started using 12 rpg. It sure looks like they wouldn't fit though...
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 08:36:22 PM by Wmaker »
Wmaker
Lentolaivue 34

Thank you for the Brewster HTC!

Offline gyrene81

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11629
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2009, 08:33:49 PM »
My german sucks but the manual on that weblink Wmaker posted is for the Ju-87G-2 and according to that manual it starts out saying magazine capacity is 6 rounds then it states the gunpods on the G-2 will hold 2 mags per gun. Nice find Wmaker.

So evidently one of the major differences between the G-1 and the G-2 is increased ammo capacity for the 3,7cm cannon.

Anyone notice the chart that shows the Ju-87G-2 was built from the Ju-87D-3? Strange...  :confused:
jarhed  
Build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day...
Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. - Terry Pratchett

Offline Motherland

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8110
Re: JU87 w\37mm Cannon for Tank Busting
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2009, 08:38:44 PM »
Actually, it looks like that 7th round isn't attached to the magazine but is the 1st round of a magazine already in the "feed chute".

(Image removed from quote.)
This picture pretty much shows it. The pod/the feed chute actually house two 6-round magazines, one after the other. Now that I think about it, I remember reading about this from somewhere. At first they only used 6 rpg and later started using 12 rpg. It sure looks like they wouldn't fit though...
I disagree. It doesn't look at all like there's enough room in the gunpod for a whole magazine, especially when you see how much of the gunpod the gun seems to actually take up


The machinery around the round in the picture you posted would seem to be that of the gun itself as opposed to something attached to the gun.

And how big the feed chute thing is, and how big the magazine is. Another interesting thing you point out is that there is a seventh free round being loaded in front of the magazine.
Out of pure speculation, it could be the case that a round was loaded into the chamber before the magazine was inserted to increase it's preciously small capacity, making the G's total ammunition capacity 14 rounds, 7 rounds per gun.


What does Patronenrahmen mean? The manual on the site says 'Patronenrahmen zu je 6 schuss (Huelsen fallen ins Freie)
I only got gibberish out of the translator... 'patron frame'....
« Last Edit: November 19, 2009, 08:53:04 PM by Motherland »