Author Topic: P-51D  (Read 645 times)

RoadfRash

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P-51D
« on: March 19, 2001, 09:54:00 PM »
Dale can you site any eveidence and or statistics that support the 51 ripping its wings off each and every time the 51 does a pull up at or near 505 mph as it does in AH with out fail! Jesus we would never have won the war!

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2001, 10:05:00 PM »
It's not the speed that rips the wings off. It's the G-load during the pull out.

Max G loading for the P-51D was +8 and -4 G's at minimum weight. Which at 500mph can be achieved with minimal stick input. I would suggest dampening your joystick or using a lighter touch.

BTW, P-51's did have a nasty reputation for loosing wings during maneuvers in WW2. I have seen many accounts written on just that thing.

Later
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RoadfRash

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P-51D
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2001, 10:08:00 PM »
Really! I'll be damned guess the gov kept it quite for a while then, dont have a lotta books on WWII so have to rely on what I hear in the MA & BBS all reputable sources I'm sure <G>

Offline Wotan

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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2001, 10:51:00 PM »
What f4 means is you can pullout but you are pulling too hard. Try using elevator trim to get out of dive. Or adjusting the sliders under joystick settings or better yet don't pull so far back.

Your first couple of posts I've seen have been rather rude if your new to AH you cant expect people to help you with that attitude. The 2 posts I've seen today by you have been a complaint about AH when the obvious problem has been your ability to fly. AH has a tough learning curve and a lot of folks will help you. The way you phrase your post expect those that have the answers to your questions simply to ignore them. F4 nows what hes taliking about and I'm sure he could explain it way better the I. Just some friendly advice take it or leave it.

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RoadfRash

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P-51D
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2001, 11:14:00 PM »
Wasn't trying to be rude in any way shape or form Wo, have questions about things, I understood completely what F4 was saying and yes your right in the game its my flying thats doing it , the question was and my wonderment was did the P 51 do this in the real world , like I explained I dont have a lot of reading material about WWI, perhaps bud your pinning general world piss n moan on me unjustly, if I have been rude please explain it I dont see it your way? And since f4 related real world P51 failures I feel more comfortable that this is the way it should be in the flight model, I dont always assume that everything in a game is correct so I ask questions, gosh sorry if I came across badly to you!

Offline Buzzbait

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« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2001, 05:16:00 AM »
S!

The history is all there regarding the wings of the P-51.  Very simply, the aircraft was not built to take the load and speeds which the Merlin engine and extra fuel imposed.  The USAAF sent out a memo to pilots warning them not to engage in high 'g' maneuvers when carrying a heavy fuel load.  And they were banned from doing any maneuvers while the rear 85 gallon tank was full.  When this tank was full, the center of gravity was moved back and extra strains put on the fuselage and wings.  Pilots were told to use the fuel from the rear fuselage tank BEFORE the drop tanks and wait till the tank was maximum 1/2 full before flying combat maneuvers.  (plus losing the drop tanks of course) AH replicates this   If you are taking a full fuel load with the AH, then the 85 gallon rear tank is full.  And if you try any kind of serious maneuvers with it full, then you are likely to lose your wings.

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2001, 06:39:00 AM »
Found on another board:

"The Mustang had been dogged by instances of structural failure, particularly since the marriage to the Merlin. Flight restrictions on dives and other manoeuvres were imposed, but in the course of combat, these sometimes had to be ignored. The puzzling thing about Mustang airframe failure was that it could not be pinpointed to any one area and was sometimes encountered in brand-new aircraft that had not undergone any known flight strain. Engines tore loose from fuselages, wings were shed, and empennages crumpled and while most of these incidents happened during a sharp manoevre it was a fact that other Mustangs would engage in the same manoevre time and again without any sign of failure. Some components were strengthened - notably the fin and undercarriage door locks (which had a nasty habit of breaking open) - but a few cases of airframe failure were regularly reported to the end of hostilities and beyond." - Roger Freeman, "Mustang at War".

"Most serious of all [problems] was structural failure. Occasionally the wings came off Mustangs in a high-speed dive. There were two main causes for this. At very high speeds, the large doors of the ammunition bays began to bulge outwards. This distorted the wing to the stage where stresses imposed were too great, and it parted company with the fuselage. The second cause was a tendency for the undercarriage to extend in flight, causing abnormal loads on the wing." - Mike Spick, "Great Aircraft of WWII"

"'I witnessed this [Mustang wing] loss on two occasions. One wing was lost directly over the airfield at Madna, Italy in the fall of 1944. The airplane and pilot went straight into the ground not far from the control tower. One other loss occurred there during an afternoon 'rat race.' Coincidentally we were discussing this wing loss with Johnny Typer, the civilian representative from NAA at the time. He was adamant that no-one could pull the wings off a P-51. No sooner had he made that remark than I heard behind me the dull thumps of two wings separating. He asked 'What's that?' and I answered that it had happened again. He asked how I knew, to which I replied, 'Once you've heard that sound, you'll never forget it." We watched as the litter and tumbling wings fell slowly to the ground, long after the fuselage and pilot had crashed - an unforgettable sight and feeling." - Lt. William G. Coloney, 52nd FG, quoted in the Spick book mentioned above.

Offline Fishu

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P-51D
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2001, 06:41:00 AM »
Maybe you should check your stick for possible spikes?
Those are very good at breaking the plane.
Just one small quick stick spike that is enough big, will cause in less than a second excessive G overloard which will break wings off.

In AH, go in the joystick setup and there you will see little diagram screen (whatever it is called) on the left bottom corner.
While joystick setup is open, just pull the stick slowly back to its maximum limit while following the line in this diagram box.
If there comes sharp up or down spikes, then your stick is spiking which might be involved in breaking the plane.

Offline Vermillion

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P-51D
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2001, 06:44:00 AM »
RoadRash, you might also check for a spiky joystick.

If your in a high speed dive and the joystick spikes, say "bye bye" wings.

Several other people have had this problem in AH, and they always blame the game. Until they fix their Joysticks and turn kinda red in the face.

Just a suggestion.

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Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2001, 08:09:00 AM »
Wow,

One thing about the AH crowd that you have to admit is that the always have the data. I was hoping RoadfRash wouldn't call me on the carpet about the Mustang wing ripping because I didn't have the docs. Then blam, Nashwan rips them and backs me up. Amazing, nobody gets away with anything on these boards.

<S>All
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Offline J_A_B

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P-51D
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2001, 10:02:00 AM »
That quote from "Mustang at War" is missing a part.   Right after that section, it also says something along the lines of although it happened, it was quite rare compared to the large number of Mustangs in service.

The Mustang was somewhat of a "spam can", but it wasn't a matchstick kite like some planes.  With gentle stick inputs, it is easy to fly the P-51 in excess of 550 MPH.   In AH I have had them at more then 600 MPH before with no ill effects.  (that was before the high-speed buffeting.  I have also seen non-jet aircraft break the sound barrier in AH with no damage, which I assume is impossible now)

J_A_B

Offline Voss

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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2001, 10:10:00 AM »
Is it possible that aircraft materials produced during the war were defective? Several issues concerning metallurgical inconsistencies have come up in recent years. In WWII they didn't have the scientific capabilities that we enjoy today. They were, for instance, quite ignorant of amalgamate issues that we are aware of today. Merge that with a rushed production run and you get inconsistent products in the very least.

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RoadfRash

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P-51D
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
Wow, I had no idea the Mustang saw this much trouble, watch wings a lot on cable, but it never goes into this kind of stuff, I'll check the j-stick its a CH combat stick so I dont think its spiking, what I see happening is I use the elevator trim to bring it back up and as it start to bring the nose up it seems to snap up and thats when it happens sometimes, but most the time its me hogging the stick back <G>, also does this data go across the A's, B's & C's, and the D's, and secondly in AH which fuel load puts what amount of fuel in the rear tank? Thanks for all the input really appreciate your time!

Offline J_A_B

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2001, 01:56:00 PM »
Pretty much every plane made had some problems.....they're just usually forgotten if the plane happened to be successful.   And, as previously stated, these problems with the Mustang weren't exactly rampant....just an airframe here and there.

Fuel loads:   75% fills the wing tanks, and puts a little in the rear tank.  This IMO is the largest "safe" fuel load possible in AH.   100% fuel loads the rear tank up all the way, so you need to be careful until that first tank is mostly burned up.

J_A_B

RoadfRash

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P-51D
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2001, 02:58:00 PM »
True Voss good point, thats in fact what sank the Titanic so maybe your right there that would explain the randomness of air frame failure, this has been very instructive, thanks all for your inputs, bye-the-bye I checked my j-stick and its nice and smooth no spikes, so most of the probs are mine as to rippin wings, my first thoughts on this were that it should be randomized, but after reading this and now knowing what some of my fuel loads did its much more understandable!