Does this sound like our Ta-152?

[Sturm]

During a flight testing a Ta-152 flew by Kurt Tank himselve had a funny misadventure. Whereas he rejoined the city of Cottbus, he was confronted by two American Mustang. Kurt Tank managed to get out of that difficult situation easily by putting the engines at top speed !! He let behind him the hostile rooted by the spot...

From what I have read he engaged the MW-50 and left the stangs behind in a blue cloud.  Does this soundlike the accelerating fool the 152 was we have now?  Unperk the 152 or make it cost less.  Either that or give it a value of 9-10 and unperk it.  I found this tidbit here http://www.home.ch/~spaw2879/aircrafts/FW-152-uk.htm  but from what I have read wasn't it 5-6 mustangs?  And he did not have any ammo in his guns?  Rather funny running from a runstang    

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[funked]

How do you know Tank was flying the Ta 152H-1?

[Sturm]

IN every book or web site I have read about this it is Kurt Tank himself.  Near the end of 1944, Kurt Tank himself had a narrow escape while flying one of his Ta 152Hs. He was flying from Langenhagen near Hannover to attend a meeting at the Focke-Wulf plant in Cottbus. His plane carried armament, but no ammunition. Shortly after takeoff, he was jumped by four Mustangs. Tank pressed the button which activated his MW 50 boost, opened the throttle wide, and quickly left the Mustangs far behind in a cloud of blue smoke.  I was searching for the story and found it, this is exactyl what I have read in each case.

Source: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ta152.html#RTFToC2  

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[Vermillion]

What altitude did it occur at? I forget where it changes over, but you get high enough, the Ta152 easily outruns a P-51.

Down low the Ta152 is slow. And it should be according to the factory test docs, and design theory. The turbochargers which are setup to give it, its superior speed at high altitudes, consumes quite a bit of engine power at low levels. But up high it is quite fast.

Kinda like a P-47 or P-38. They stink low, but are great up high due to their turbosuperchargers.

Edit: Also which Ta152 was he flying? A prototype ? (which there were quite a few different ones, with different engines).

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Westy]

 How fast were the 51's going upon the encounter? How about Kurt Tank?  Had the 51's dove from  a higher "alt" and did they have alot of "E" trying to bag him?  Were the 51's on slow "cruise" and suddenly saw the TA go by and turn towards him?  Did Kurt just take off and go 'wheels' up? What is "shortly" after takeoff?
 
 This one is ripe for speculation and is so ambiguous it could in no way, shape or form define *anything* about the FM for a P-51D or TA-152. But when one reads this debunked wives tail "Others flew "top-cover" for bases from which Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighters operated, trying to protect the jets from being "bounced" by Allied fighters during takeoff or landing. It was said that no British or American fighters risked attacking an Me 262 during landing  while Ta 152s were known to be circling the airfield." one wonders about the whole story. Since so FEW TA's even got into combat I'm not sure they would have kept any group of Allied planes at bay what so ever.  Maybe a Empirical Battle Star   but a few planes? . That speculation would almost be comical to be honest of it weren't such a blatant slap to the bravery and courage of the Allied pilots.

  -Westy


 


[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-20-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Sturm]

Westy look up the cvombat losses for the 262's when the fighters were flying cover and when they were not.  I will see if I can pull some data out, but from memory the numbers were quite startling.  According to acceleration charts The D-9 was better then the mustang, and a tick faster then the Mk XIV spit from 200-300 at low alt.  With the TA you have to take into account that Tank did not have ammo in his guns, and was probably not even close to combat weight.  Reading Gallands books also give some in sight as to the cover the FW's provided.  I will do some research on this, and look around, more into this story.I will also find the distance between lift off and landing.  I think many are believing it wasn't a supermans plane.  If I get a chance soon I will run up to the Garber facility in a week or two and see if I can dig thru the archives on the FW's and TA's.    

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[Vermillion]

Sturm what info are you looking for? Because I have just about everything you could want scanned and on the net for the Ta152, the Fw190A8, and some info on the D9 and D11/D12.  All of which are original factory test documents or translations of original factory test documents.

Westy is correct. Its an urban legend that the Ta152 flew "top cover" for Me262's. Now there may have been Dora's assigned to that duty, I honestly don't know. But the Ta152's did not. Common sense and historical documents show that it didn't happen.

And even if the Ta152's did, the maximum number that were combat available at any one time was 13, and typically there were only 7-8 planes operational at any one time. Seven or Eight planes (or even thirteen if you want to be generous) will not make any significant difference to what is going on in an airbattle the size of the Western front in the last 6-8 months of the war.

What we are saying is that the story about Kurt Tank could be completely true, but it in no way is applicable to our Flight Models in Aces High without knowing a whole lot more data.

And your right, anyone who knows much about aircraft will tell you that it was not a supermans airplane, at least not in all regards in all situations. I will agree its a supermans airplane at high altitude fighting where it was designed to be its best. But engineering design is about tradeoffs.  And to get the Ta152 to be very effective at high altitudes, it has to make tradeoffs against its low altitude performance.

In my opinon, the late mark Spitfires, the MkXIV and possibly the Mk XXII, were probably the best all around "pure fighters" (in regards to AH) designed and put into combat operations during the war. And even that is very debateable.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[Fishu]

Im not sure but I believe I've once heard that when there were Ta152s capping Me262 landing, allied 262 hunters avoided the area more than as if there would been others, like doras in presence?

Ta152 accerlation is sloooow.

[Westy]

Westy look up the cvombat losses for the 262's when the fighters were flying cover and when they were not.

 I'm not interested to be honest. I've just read in mnay places that the TA's being used as "CAP" was bogus.

I will see if I can pull some data out, but from memory the numbers were quite startling.

 Yes. Any specifics would be nice.  Much more preferable than memory. I refer to your your "introductroy" post to AH and you'll see why.

  -Westy

Please do.

[Sturm]

Verm JV44 Platzschutzstaffel was brought about by Galland needing a fighter unit to cover his 262's during landing and take off's.  It comprised of 6 Dora's 1 of them being a D-11.  These are the birds you hear about that are so wonderfully painted.  These books you must have, JV44 The Gallands Circus , Dora D-9's of the Galland Circus.  Check this site out for some info on it.  http://www.stormbirds.com/experten/products2.htm    

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[Sturm]

Ah my intro post    I had heard what a crowd you were over here.  So why not start things off with a bang.  In all honesty that isn't me.  Sometimes you just got to have some fun, and see what happens.  Any way after doing some quick reading I would have to agree that the TA's were not base coverer's, but the duty was solely left to the D-9's.  However there are of course missions and kills by TA's that scrambled to intercept low flyers strafing targets near by there runway's.  That is factual truth.  But if the stats prove anything the D-9 was a screamer at 10k and even on the deck.  One other thing to note performance suffered considerably if MW-50 was not installed, I have documents that show the D9 had a top speed of around 360-9 without MW50.  This of course is coming from the JG 26 diaries volume 1 and 2 stating the first batch of Dora's came without MW-50 and suffered accordingly.  But this is the first batch of Dora's.  

I'm not interested to be honest.
 
However you look at it, if you are not interested then why ask for details for something you have no interest in?  I will never post false data unless it is proven wrong of course.  But my will and intent is to deliver truthful information albeit thru this BBS or thru e-mail.  Read my above post and you might understand why we are so fascinated about the luftwaffe.



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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[fscott]

I don't see what's wrong with the Ta152's speed curve down low. Last night I outran a 109g10, la7, and a p51D at 3-4k.  A little known secret abou the Ta152 is that even in a very shallow dive, it will really go fast.

fscott

[Sturm]

Scott BTW nice kills on me the other night, I have a hard time seeing at low light and night time combats.  I should have known better and just logged off but I was frustrated and wanted to get that last kill in for the night    Yes the 152 once you get it going is fast but you have to have alt in order to achieve this.  

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

[Westy]

 My error. I should have said, "I'm not THAT interested enough to do your research".

 And we're clear on the 262 base CAP. <S>

  -Westy

[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 03-20-2001).]

[Sturm]

Westy I meant in this post not in this one.  About the FW damage.  http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/Forum9/HTML/001857.html

To look at how we are with planes/data and such

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JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron