Iran war games?

[-tronski-]

Munitions? What kind of munitions? Name them!

Most of Saddam's dual use technology came from west Europe, Russia, and Switzerland. You cant just pin it on the US. Had Saddam lost that war, and Iran's revolution taken over the Gulf, what then for our oil supply? Our economies?

You need to go back to History class. The US decision to escort oil tankers during the tanker war had everything to do with protecting the west's oil supply and nothing to do with helping anybody.

At the time, as bad as Saddam was, he never engineered the hostile takeover of an American embassy. An internationally accepted "Act of War". I was in the MidEast under arms at the time.

Where were you?

There was Fred the bomb, Marge the Artillery piece, I do apologise to the Germans French and British for also having mentioned them as suppliers of chem weapons....as for History class thats just going to fall into name calling about a lack of history class all around...

I appreciate that you were in Iran when I was 9 in 1979 when the Iranians more than just a little pissed that Carter allowed the Shah into the US, I seem to remember that quite recently even - nations get really pissed off when you shelter a man like the Shah.

aha, plus no one has mentioned the three letters which would be reason alone for an iranian to dislike the US - C, I and A ...

I prefer the great Satan stuff...its far more...palatable?

 Tronsky

[Rich46yo]

I cant argue with people I have on ignore now can I?

But what weapons were on those helicopters? Those vehicles? Answer me that one? Heres the mighty defender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_500_Defender Now take all weapons off it and thats what we sold Saddam.

Everything else I covered. My only point was our military involvment with Saddam was negligable compared to Frances, or Russias. Which sold him vast amounts of military hardware. Vast amounts of nuclear technology. If you'd like, and if it would sound more impressive, I could post a bunch of dates too to make myself look smarter then i am.

You would think there would be more material about all these arms transfers, like there is about 60 unarmed scout helicopters, but the world needs its USA phobia fix far more then its French one. Or its Russian one. "America made Saddam" was a catchy phrase even if supported by very little fact.

The Russians saved Saddam. And the French. Then they kept him in so he could pay the bills. Heres the rough breakdown. http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001853.html

Country $MM USD 1990 % Total
USSR 25145 57.26%
France 5595 12.74%
China 5192 11.82%
Czechoslovakia 2880 6.56%
Poland 1681 3.83%
Brazil 724 1.65%
Egypt 568 1.29%
Romania 524 1.19%
Denmark 226 0.51%
Libya 200 0.46%
USA 200 0.46%
South Africa 192 0.44
Austria 190 0.43
Switzerland 151 0.34
Yugoslavia 107 0.24
Germany (FRG) 84 0.19
Italy 84 0.19
UK 79 0.18
Hungary 30 0.07
Spain 29 0.07
East Germany (GDR) 25 0.06
Canada 7 0.02
Jordan 2 0.005
Total 43915 100.0

We sold him even less the Denmark did. So get a freaking life.

[Die Hard]

Add the $5 billion that America transfered trough Italian banks in "unreported loans" and we're right up there with France.

[-tronski-]

I cant argue with people I have on ignore now can I?

But what weapons were on those helicopters? Those vehicles? Answer me that one? Heres the mighty defender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_500_Defender Now take all weapons off it and thats what we sold Saddam.

Everything else I covered. My only point was our military involvment with Saddam was negligable compared to Frances, or Russias. Which sold him vast amounts of military hardware. Vast amounts of nuclear technology. If you'd like, and if it would sound more impressive, I could post a bunch of dates too to make myself look smarter then i am.

You would think there would be more material about all these arms transfers, like there is about 60 unarmed scout helicopters, but the world needs its USA phobia fix far more then its French one. Or its Russian one. "America made Saddam" was a catchy phrase even if supported by very little fact.

The Russians saved Saddam. And the French. Then they kept him in so he could pay the bills. Heres the rough breakdown. http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001853.html

You always have to love sources that start with The purpose of this post is to address one of the many mythical claims about the United States popularized by some Leftists who would have us believe that the United States is the cause of most of what is wrong with the world.


You could try this: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/: Document 61: United States District Court (Florida: Southern District) Affidavit. "United States of America, Plaintiff, v. Carlos Cardoen [et al.]" [Charge that Teledyne Wah Chang Albany Illegally Provided a Proscribed Substance, Zirconium, to Cardoen Industries and to Iraq], January 31, 1995.

Former Reagan administration National Security Council staff member Howard Teicher says that after Ronald Reagan signed a national security decision directive calling for the U.S. to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq's defeat in the Iran-Iraq war, Director of Central Intelligence William Casey personally led efforts to ensure that Iraq had sufficient weapons, including cluster bombs, and that the U.S. provided Iraq with financial credits, intelligence, and strategic military advice. The CIA also provided Iraq, through third parties that included Israel and Egypt, with military hardware compatible with its Soviet-origin weaponry.


Of course my original point had nothing to do with weapon purchases...but with the economic effects of the tanker war...but you cant argue with people you have on ignore now can you?

 Tronsky

[MORAY37]

See Rule #4

[Ack-Ack]

I cant argue with people I have on ignore now can I?

But what weapons were on those helicopters? Those vehicles? Answer me that one? Heres the mighty defender http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MD_500_Defender Now take all weapons off it and thats what we sold Saddam.

Everything else I covered. My only point was our military involvment with Saddam was negligable compared to Frances, or Russias. Which sold him vast amounts of military hardware. Vast amounts of nuclear technology. If you'd like, and if it would sound more impressive, I could post a bunch of dates too to make myself look smarter then i am.

You would think there would be more material about all these arms transfers, like there is about 60 unarmed scout helicopters, but the world needs its USA phobia fix far more then its French one. Or its Russian one. "America made Saddam" was a catchy phrase even if supported by very little fact.

The Russians saved Saddam. And the French. Then they kept him in so he could pay the bills. Heres the rough breakdown. http://www.parapundit.com/archives/001853.html

Country $MM USD 1990 % Total
USSR 25145 57.26%
France 5595 12.74%
China 5192 11.82%
Czechoslovakia 2880 6.56%
Poland 1681 3.83%
Brazil 724 1.65%
Egypt 568 1.29%
Romania 524 1.19%
Denmark 226 0.51%
Libya 200 0.46%
USA 200 0.46%
South Africa 192 0.44
Austria 190 0.43
Switzerland 151 0.34
Yugoslavia 107 0.24
Germany (FRG) 84 0.19
Italy 84 0.19
UK 79 0.18
Hungary 30 0.07
Spain 29 0.07
East Germany (GDR) 25 0.06
Canada 7 0.02
Jordan 2 0.005
Total 43915 100.0

We sold him even less the Denmark did. So get a freaking life.

sometimes I really wonder if you're really this dense.

The Hughes helicopters sold to Iraq were considered duel use equipment.  We'd sell them as 'civilian' equipment and once the Iraqis received them, they'd get converted to military use.  It's a very common trick we use to skirt around certain legalities to sell weapons to other countries.  The same way we sold them equipment and technology for their chemical weapons.  If you had bothered to read more about the Hughes helicopter transfers, you would have read how they were converted to military use after they were purchased and how South Korea was contracted to do the work. 

If you also read anything else about our involvement, you would see how we were instrumental in getting Iraq loans from various world organizations and countries to help fund their war and how we protected their oil shipping during the 'tanker war'.  You would have also read how we gave direct military advise on both the strategic and tactical level with military advisors serving on the front lines and planning the day to day strategic bombing campaign.

Without US support, Iraq would not have been able to purchase the weapons they needed, gotten the military assistance and backing they needed nor the world support at first (prior to their rampant use of chemical weapons).  You can stick your head in the sand and ignore reality but it still doesn't make you correct when documented facts refute every single one of your points. 

ack-ack

[Rich46yo]

Rich, it's unreal the sources you pick. Perhaps, I should say idiotic, in reality. I guess you are saying that all the documents contained within the United States are frauds, both governmental and from the private sector.

It seems your local Dept. of Transportation knows you.  I found this driving past your house.
(Image removed from quote.)

I'd say your pretty idiotic yourself. Like Tronsky you make accusations you cant back up. And dont back up.

I picked that source because it is the correct rough estimate of who supplied Saddam's military hardware during his rule. Tronsky cant name the munitions cause we didn't sell him any. You doing the typical Moray by calling everyone else in the world stupid even tho you saw for yourself, probably in your own living room, countless video clips of what kind of equipment Saddam's army was using.

Heres the equipment Saddam armed his ground forces with. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/ground-equipment.htm

Heres a link you can figure out where Saddam got all his dedicated hardware for his nuclear programs. http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/nuke.htm Think of it as your homework assignment since you cant play nice or back up your ridiculous statements.

Much of Saddam's chem/Bio programs were fueled by western/Russian sales of dual use technology. Apparently much of the same equipment for medical use can be used to produce these weapons as well. I dont see how you can say "no" to a developing country that wants to produce their own vaccines. Be that is it may many countries supplied Saddam with this stuff. There are over 40 countries in the world with either nuclear/chem/bio weapon programs, and/or current capability, and/or all three.

Here, since I have to spell it out for you. http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment.htm See any Yank warplanes?
Here http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-force-equipment-intro.htm

The equipment of the air force and the army's air corps, like that of the other services, was primarily of Soviet manufacture. After 1980, however, in an effort to diversify its sources of advanced armaments, Iraq turned to France for Mirage fighters and for attack helicopters. Between 1982 and 1987, Iraq received or ordered a variety of equipment from France, including more than 100 Mirage F-1s, about 100 Gazelle, Super-Frelon, and Alouette helicopters, and a variety of air-to-surface and air-to-air missiles, including Exocets. Other attack helicopters purchased included the Soviet Hind equipped with AT-2 Swatter, and BO-105s equipped with AS-11 antitank guided weapons. In addition, Iraq bought seventy F-7 (Chinese version of the MiG-21) fighters, assembled in Egypt. Thus Iraq's overall airpower was considerable.

Saddams air defense http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iraq/air-defence-equipment.htm

By the summer of 1990, Iraq possessed 16,000 radar-guided and heatseeking surface-to-air missiles (SAMs), including the Soviet SA-2, SA-3, SA-6, SA-7, SA-8, SA-9, SA-13, SA-14, and SA-16, and the Franco-German Roland. Additional air defense was provided by Air Force interceptors and organic Army assets, including the SA-7/14, SA-8, SA-9/13, SA-16 missile systems, and the ZSU-23/4 self-propelled AAA system. In addition, the Iraqi air defense had more than 7,500 AAA pieces protecting all targets of value, some deployed on the roofs of numerous buildings in Baghdad housing government facilities. These weapons -- 57-mm and 37-mm AAA pieces, ZSU-23/4 and ZSU-57/2 self-propelled AAA systems, and hundreds of 14.5-mm and 23-mm light antiaircraft weapons -- formed the backbone of the integrated air defense network. In major high value target areas (such as Baghdad, airfields, chemical agent production complexes, and nuclear facilities) the combined arms air defense could prove lethal to aircraft operating below 10,000 feet.

This entire argument is getting old. You can bombard people with the truth and yet they will stick to their conspiracy theories. Most of all when America is involved. Stalin had a name he reserved for foreign peoples who believed the Soviet line regarding their own country. He considered it very useful propaganda cause it was spread by his enemies and aimed at their own Govt.s . That term was "usefull fools".

Here, everyone likes pictures right? America sold Saddam these.


The Germans sold Saddam these.


The French sold Saddam these.

And these.


And The Russians sold Saddam these.


More snippets for the snippers.

By the end of the Iran-Iraq War, Iraq approached companies in the UK, West Germany, the Netherlands, and France for the necessary components for gas-centrifuge enrichment. These efforts had been only partially successful. It seems that the Iraqis had success in obtaining certain centrifuge types and made attempts to recruit experts on the development and construction of gas centrifuges in Iraq from Germany.

http://www.gloria-center.org/meria/2004/09/al-marashi.html

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/iraq501/index.html BTW The Anfal campaign used French and Soviet aircraft and Helicopters to deliver its chemical weapons onto the Kuridsh civilian population.

[-tronski-]

I'd say your pretty idiotic yourself. Like Tronsky you make accusations you cant back up. And dont back up.

I picked that source because it is the correct rough estimate of who supplied Saddam's military hardware during his rule. Tronsky cant name the munitions cause we didn't sell him any. You doing the typical Moray by calling everyone else in the world stupid even tho you saw for yourself, probably in your own living room, countless video clips of what kind of equipment Saddam's army was using.

You could try this: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/: Document 61: United States District Court (Florida: Southern District) Affidavit. "United States of America, Plaintiff, v. Carlos Cardoen [et al.]" [Charge that Teledyne Wah Chang Albany Illegally Provided a Proscribed Substance, Zirconium, to Cardoen Industries and to Iraq], January 31, 1995.

Former Reagan administration National Security Council staff member Howard Teicher says that after Ronald Reagan signed a national security decision directive calling for the U.S. to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq's defeat in the Iran-Iraq war, Director of Central Intelligence William Casey personally led efforts to ensure that Iraq had sufficient weapons, including cluster bombs, and that the U.S. provided Iraq with financial credits, intelligence, and strategic military advice. The CIA also provided Iraq, through third parties that included Israel and Egypt, with military hardware compatible with its Soviet-origin weaponry.

Bush's Secret Mission. The New Yorker Magazine. November 2, 1992 http://www.jonathanpollard.org/2002/111402.htm

But there were other ways of arming Iraq. One such way - transferring arms through third countries - was outlined in a classified memo written by William L. Eagleton, the chief of the United States-interests section in Baghdad, in October, 1983. "We can selectively lift restrictions on third party transfers of U.S.- licensed military equipment to Iraq," he wrote. Even though the stated United States policy toward the Iran-Iraq War remained one of neutrality, and Congress would never have approved such arms transfers, that year the Reagan Administration began secretly allowing Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt to transfer United States weapons, including Howitzers, Huey helicopters, and bombs, to Iraq. These shipments may very well have violated the Arms Export Control Act.

Of course my original point had nothing to do with weapon purchases...but with the economic effects of the tanker war.

Donations can be made to the American Foundation for the Blind at http://www.afb.org/


 Tronsky

[sandwich]

Whoops, didnt mean to post.

[Timofei]

Go back to your nap. You dont even know what it is were talking about.
..
Most of the world would hear this idiotic statement and probably agree...
..
I'd say your pretty idiotic yourself

The happy old days of flaming and politics is back ?

[Bodhi]

Add the $5 billion that America transfered trough Italian banks in "unreported loans" and we're right up there with France.

Please provide proof of that.

[Die Hard]

Just google "BNL scandal".

[Bodhi]

Wow... a bunch of conspiracy sites.  FAS is a conspiracy site that ranks right up there with the those pushing alarmist global warming theories.

[Die Hard]

So you actually failed at googling...

Try http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/congress/1992_cr/h920428g.htm unless you consider that a "conspiracy site" as well.

[Bodhi]

So you actually failed at googling...

Try http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/congress/1992_cr/h920428g.htm unless you consider that a "conspiracy site" as well.

You really are an ass. 

The google results I pulled up did not have that result on the first page.  Either way, if it is true, you said 5 billion.  The site you listed says the total was $4 billion of which half went to industrial and agricultural concerns and the other 2 went to procurement.  Very little on what was actually purchased though.  Nice attempt at a 150% exaggeration though.

So, if it is true, the US gave the Iraqi's a questionable amount of money towards their military build up during and after their war with Iran.  It says it ended in early 1990.  We attacked and destroyed a large percentage of their military hardware in 91.... so basically we removed what we gave them.