Which fighter has the longest range for high-alt escort?

[Furball]

At 30,000 feet nothing with a prop can out-perform with the N jug. Some planes can match it in some aspects, but overall it is the best.
Assuming you don't get to the fight with 550 gallons internal fuel that is.

The TA-152 is significantly faster on mil settings than the jug on mil, not sure how they compare maneuverability-wise at that altitude though, you probably know far better than me.  Personally i prefer the WEP on the 152 than the Jug - I think the N-Jug is a dumptruck without it.

Spitfire XIV is also faster on mil, and has better climbrate at 30k even without wep.

[Anaxogoras]

Ok, so why did P47's not escort bombers all the way to the target?

From most if not all of what I've seen, heard, that didn't happen until the P51's got on the scene.

P47N released that much after the P51's?

Yes, the P-47N is a 1945 bird.

[MjTalon]

I'd like to see how much gas that spit 14 has once it reaches 30k
 

[Spikes]

Ok, so why did P47's not escort bombers all the way to the target?

From most if not all of what I've seen, heard, that didn't happen until the P51's got on the scene.

P47N released that much after the P51's?

That's what I wondered, unless the Pony's upped from closer line bases...

[BoilerDown]

There was a great website that I read a year or two ago about the history of the P-47, including opinions on why it was relegated to mostly attack roles towards the end of the war while the P-51s "got" to do the bomber escorts.  Unfortunately I just did a few google searches and I wasn't able to find it again.

Most historical accounts will claim that the P-51 assumed the role of escorting bombers from the P-47 because it was the only aircraft able to stay with the bombers the entire time.  But from what I recall, the web site I was looking for claimed that the Jug's fuel capacity was upgraded to allow it to escort just as far as the P-51s, around the same time that the long range P-51s arrived in Europe.  So why did the US send their pilots out in the lighter armed and armored P-51s?  The conclusion I came to, if the previously-mentioned was true, was cost.  The P-47 was more expensive, both in cost per aircraft and cost in fuel consumed per mile, than the P-51.  The lives of the pilots were either cheaper in comparison, or they weren't factored in.

As an aside, even if its true that the US didn't protect its WW2 pilots as much as it could by sending them out in a perfectly capable P-47 instead of the P-51, I would hesitate greatly before calling it a "mistake"... we were trying to win a war, and there was no guarantee that the war would be won when it was, or that the money and fuel saved wouldn't be important in the end.

[Karnak]

I'd like to see how much gas that spit 14 has once it reaches 30k
 

In reality?  Plenty for its role.  In AH?  Not much.

[Stoney]

Ok, so why did P47's not escort bombers all the way to the target?

Well, the C and D models 8th Air Force used early didn't have the range, obviously.  As the war progressed, the later D models, using external tanks, could range targets in western Germany.  The N model was an entirely different animal.  It added a substantial amount of internal fuel in wing tanks, one to each side.  Couple that with the ability to carry lots of external fuel, the P-47N was the ultimate long-range escort of the war, especially at the altitudes the B-29 was designed to operate at.  It even included flip-down rudder pedals the pilot could stretch his legs out on and an autopilot to let the pilot fly those long missions more comfortably.

Those guys on Ie Shima were flying 12 hour missions up to Seoul and back, from Oki, self contained.  That's an enormous capability.

[BnZs]

The P-47Ds never had quite the range of the Mustang. Meanwhile, no P-51 ever absorbed punishment from ground-fire like the P-47 could. More important than either of these considerations, the P-51 was more maneuverable and performed better below 25K or so. Because the P-51 is significantly less maneuverable than the Jug in AHII, we tend to forget that in reality it was the better "dogfighter" according to both Allied and German opinion.

There was a great website that I read a year or two ago about the history of the P-47, including opinions on why it was relegated to mostly attack roles towards the end of the war while the P-51s "got" to do the bomber escorts.  Unfortunately I just did a few google searches and I wasn't able to find it again.

Most historical accounts will claim that the P-51 assumed the role of escorting bombers from the P-47 because it was the only aircraft able to stay with the bombers the entire time.  But from what I recall, the web site I was looking for claimed that the Jug's fuel capacity was upgraded to allow it to escort just as far as the P-51s, around the same time that the long range P-51s arrived in Europe.  So why did the US send their pilots out in the lighter armed and armored P-51s?  The conclusion I came to, if the previously-mentioned was true, was cost.  The P-47 was more expensive, both in cost per aircraft and cost in fuel consumed per mile, than the P-51.  The lives of the pilots were either cheaper in comparison, or they weren't factored in.

As an aside, even if its true that the US didn't protect its WW2 pilots as much as it could by sending them out in a perfectly capable P-47 instead of the P-51, I would hesitate greatly before calling it a "mistake"... we were trying to win a war, and there was no guarantee that the war would be won when it was, or that the money and fuel saved wouldn't be important in the end.

[Anaxogoras]

Is anyone else surprised that the P-51 was retained for ground attack in Korea instead of the P-47?

[Simba]

"Most historical accounts will claim that the P-51 assumed the role of escorting bombers from the P-47 because it was the only aircraft able to stay with the bombers the entire time."

The P-51 was the fighter that could fly all the way to Berlin - but they didn't stay with bombers all the way there and back.

Individual fighter formations didn't remain with the bombers all the way on long-range raids in Europe, the escort groups took off in relays; five relays involving three different types of escort fighter were involved in the 8th USAAF's first major raid on Berlin. First lot up (P-47s) covered the bombers from the form-up to about halfway to the target and turned for home once their ammo was expended. Next lot in (P-38s and P-51s) took over from the first relay and turned back about 50 miles from the Big City. Those detailed as escorts over the target (P-51s) cruised directly there, covering the bombers only on their approach to the start of the bomb run and their exit from it. Fourth relay (P-51s) covered the surviving bombers for the next crucial 150 miles and the last relay (all three types) came out to relieve them. There was overlap when each relay took over from the previous one and some fighter units flew twice to cover the mission.

 

[Chalenge]

Is anyone else surprised that the P-51 was retained for ground attack in Korea instead of the P-47?

Not at all. There were more P-51s when Korea came around because at the end of the war most of the P-47s and P-38s were tossed into dirt and covered over. F4Us were tossed into the ocean.

[MiloMorai]

Simba, you forgot to mention the Spitfire escorts on the initial and final legs.

The Mustangs were based west of the Mississippi (ANG units) and overseas, ANG P-47 units were based east of the Mississippi, with a few exceptions. Mustangs were closer to the action in Korea.

[Anaxogoras]

Not at all. There were more P-51s when Korea came around because at the end of the war most of the P-47s and P-38s were tossed into dirt and covered over. F4Us were tossed into the ocean.

That begs the question, doesn't it?

[BnZs]

That begs the question, doesn't it?

Duh, gross waste is one of any government's favorite hobbies Anax, you know that.

[Gabriel]

The answer to the question is that a P 51D cost around $50,000, and a late P 47D/N was not quite twice that, but around $85,000 . By the time Korea came around we still had plenty of 51s around to allow for attrition/replacements. Not so with the T-Bolts.