Author Topic: Whistle blowing on Global Warming  (Read 117330 times)

Offline Bodhi

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #390 on: December 08, 2009, 10:43:33 PM »
While I can't specifically agree or disagree, I will say the few NOAA people I've worked with were incredibly good scientists.  Incredibly good.

  NOAA's funding isn't tied to its' publications, either, Bodhi.  This is the case with some University structured systems, though thankfully fewer than it used to be.  I would suggest that you may simply cease to contribute, rather than blatantly slander an agency that encompasses such a large spectrum of work.  NOAA would not see an increase in its' funding, more likely, it would be directed by Congress to allot a certain amount or focus their energy towards that research during the budget oversight process.

As well, being a governmental agency, you have access to all raw data NOAA produces.  Feel free to check their data sets....it's public information.

NOAA stands to receive a sizable increase in their budget if the global warming paranoia proceeds to garner enough Congressional support.  It would be foolish to say otherwise.  Being a governmental agency, it is not out of the realm to believe that it will do what it can to ensure survival.  That's how governmental agencies work. 
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #391 on: December 08, 2009, 10:45:48 PM »
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Offline -tronski-

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #392 on: December 08, 2009, 10:52:13 PM »
I'll ask again---It is generally accepted the the Earth has increased ~ 3/4 of one degree Celsius in the last century or so....and that seemingly small amount is melting the polar ice caps and killing polar bears? Or is it that more serious warming is yet to come as predicted by collected data/ computer models?  In 20 years of this, I've never seen an answer to this very basic question...I'm truly interested in the answer

I saw an interview with Dr James Hansen last night who bought up an interesting point about an amplifying effect brought on by ice melting etc.

JAMES HANSEN: Yeah, well that's what makes climate a really dangerous situation, because of the inertia of the system. It takes the ocean a long time to warm up, it's four kilometres deep, and it takes icesheets a long time to get started to move, they're very thick and have a lot of inertia.
The problem is that as these changes begin to occur, and they are beginning to occur - Greenland is losing ice faster and faster and Antarctica is beginning to lose ice at a rate of about 150 cubic kilometres per year - as you get to a certain point, you can get to a point where the dynamics of the system begins to take over.
If the icesheets begin to collapse, by that time it's too late. You've passed the tipping point and the icesheet is going to end up in the ocean. So, that's one of the tipping points. Another one is methane hydrates. We're beginning to see methane bubble out of the tundra as it's melting.
There's a lot more methane hydrates on continental shelves. As the ocean warms that methane hydrate can also begin to release methane, which is a very strong greenhouse gas and can cause amplifying feedback which makes the global warming much larger.
And this is not idle speculation, because we can look at the history of the earth. And in past global warming events we have seen those kind of amplifying feedbacks which then make the change extremely large.


I'm not sure if thats what you were asking about, but he did bring up a few interesting responses about the emails and the ETS/Cap and Trade.

Video: http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/lateline/video/podcast/r482937_2469107.wmv
Transcript:http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2764523.htm


 Tronsky
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #393 on: December 08, 2009, 11:27:18 PM »
Funny.  This graph is a three run GCM (Global Climate Model) with the observed real-world readings in red. (Meaning it was run three times and mated with observed measurements)  It seems pretty close.

(Image removed from quote.)

scenario c is the only close one.

why is there 3 scenarios? what is the reason for that?
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #394 on: December 08, 2009, 11:29:47 PM »
I saw an interview with Dr James Hansen last night who bought up an interesting point about an amplifying effect brought on by ice melting etc.

JAMES HANSEN: Yeah, well that's what makes climate a really dangerous situation, because of the inertia of the system. It takes the ocean a long time to warm up, it's four kilometres deep, and it takes icesheets a long time to get started to move, they're very thick and have a lot of inertia.
The problem is that as these changes begin to occur, and they are beginning to occur - Greenland is losing ice faster and faster and Antarctica is beginning to lose ice at a rate of about 150 cubic kilometres per year - as you get to a certain point, you can get to a point where the dynamics of the system begins to take over.
If the icesheets begin to collapse, by that time it's too late. You've passed the tipping point and the icesheet is going to end up in the ocean. So, that's one of the tipping points. Another one is methane hydrates. We're beginning to see methane bubble out of the tundra as it's melting.
There's a lot more methane hydrates on continental shelves. As the ocean warms that methane hydrate can also begin to release methane, which is a very strong greenhouse gas and can cause amplifying feedback which makes the global warming much larger.
And this is not idle speculation, because we can look at the history of the earth. And in past global warming events we have seen those kind of amplifying feedbacks which then make the change extremely large.


I'm not sure if thats what you were asking about, but he did bring up a few interesting responses about the emails and the ETS/Cap and Trade.

Video: http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/lateline/video/podcast/r482937_2469107.wmv
Transcript:http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2764523.htm


 Tronsky

greenland is losing ice now.

30 years ago, it gained it.
30 years from now, it'll more than likely gain back what it's losing right now.
\

the wheels on the bus go round and round
the cycles of the earth go round and round.
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Offline batch

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #395 on: December 08, 2009, 11:59:56 PM »
No what you have done is given part of the data........ the part that suits your needs........ I told you where to go to find the "up-to-date" station readings............ you want to cite information that is in the past and relate it to current today data......... doesnt work that way...... in case you didnt see the </sarcasm> tag....... your mentor is a fool if he thinks 1965 science or even pre-1987 science which you seem to want to rely on is proof enough to yell the sky is falling today....... you have to take the data in its ENTIRETY (none of this "we are scientists so we can omit this and nobody will know" crap)...... then form a pattern based on ALL the data........ something you obviously cannot grasp

GLOSS has readings as current as you want them......... not ending in 2006 like the alarmists want to use......... thats because 2006-2009 shows a decline in sea levels......... lets throw that data out...... dont need that....... doesnt help our cause

when you add 2006-2009 numbers to the trend........ it shows steadying to a minor increase as I mentioned earlier an inch or few over the next 100 years

another pretty picture you posted...... the source has been taken down thats shown on it......... you are aware of course that NASA is currently being sued by one for fudging their climate modeling numbers and destroying the data to avoid the FOIA right? just read that last week myself so you may not have had the chance to catch that little tidbit yet.......... certainly gave me a chuckle in light of the other crap goin on in the GW farce

interestingly have you gone to GISS and read their methodology for analysis? they actually state right on their site that they modify their data to fit their model
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Offline batch

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #396 on: December 09, 2009, 12:13:05 AM »
of course this is why I originally left this conversation and will now do so again........

alarmists wont let the facts get in the way of their opinions.......

better buy a special hat and a heavy duty umbrella........ the sky is falling    :noid
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #397 on: December 09, 2009, 01:20:42 AM »
here's the problem as i see it.

those of us with our beliefs have them, and personal and local experience to go with.

"scientists" who are trying to convince us that global warming is man made have an agenda. they get more grants, as long as they continue to keep people convinced in it.
 large corporations see a pot of gold in this stuff, and jump on the bandwagon, throwing in their muscle, and weight. they can and WILL make more money than anyone can imagine on this crap.

 "scientists" who are trying to convince us that global warming is not man made also have their agenda. while not as big as those trying to prove it is man made, they will continue to get grants from someone.
 there's not enough money to be made if the theory is disproved, so they don't get the corporations on board, and don't pull the weight they otherwise could.

 the thing we all have to remember, is that while it may be warming in  region "A", it is cooling in region "B". chances are good that region "B" just finished a warming cycle, just as "A" just finished a cooling cycle.

 this is normal. it has, and always will happen. there is nothing the human race can do to speed it up, there is nothign the human race can do to slow or stop it.

 sea levels? same thing. if they're rising in region "A", chances are they're receding in "B".

remember...the earth doesn't rotate perfectly on its axis. it "wobbles". this can and will cause these types of changes, along with other factors.

 if any of you have ever watched discovery green(i was channel surfing), there was a show where the discovery channel is sponsering ideas to slow down global warming. this is clue #1 there's a problem. they would not involve themselves if there wasn't a LOT of money to be made off of this.

 some of the ideas? THESE are truly scary.

1) load trillions of tiny mirrors on a space ship, and blast em into outer space. they'll reflect sunlight away from the planet, or some of them being prism type lenses, they'll "bend" the suns energy, deflecting it around the earth.

2) run unmaned ocean liners about the seas, blasting a mist(creatred from sea water) pretty much creating a sort of cloud, again, blocking the suns energy from reaching us.

3) sea tubes. these are "wave" powered, go 1,000 ft deep into the ocean. they;re supposed to bring plankton to the surface. this almost makes sense, as i think plankton absorbs more carbon dioxide than trees and plants do.

 my point is who are the effin loons that want to deflect the suns energy from our planet??? we NEED its energy. are these nutballs trying to create an endless winter??
 

 the problem with these ideas, once again, is that corporations are looking at these things, as a way to make money. money from something that is not a problem to begin with.

 do you all realize that co is MUCH more dangerous than co2, right? co2 is heavier than air. it does not go up into the atmosphere. co on the other hand is lighter, and can.
 read this page.
http://www.dupagehealth.org/health_alert/co2_alert.html

back yet?  cool. now, by that, realize that co will kill you more quickly, and insidiously than co2.

 after you realize that, then realize that nox is 10 times more deadly than co.

 i wish i had the answers, but i don't.

 what i DO know, is that the weather here where i live has remained mostly unchanged for as long as i can remember. i'm 47.  the biggest change i've noticed, is that it never got warm enough for me to run my a/c this past summer. in fact, i only had to open my windows to be comfortable.

 so....all of you....forget the data, because both sides really only present us with things that favor what they want it to favor.

 look back, if you've lived in your area for a long time. was the weather noticably different 20 years ago? 30?

 we can come up with our own conclusions right here if everyone is honest in their answers, as there's people all over the world reading these threads.
 i'd bet that our conclusions are much different than what out "scientists" would like them to be.


 my brother moved to central florida when he was 18. he's now 45. he says that the weather there is the same as when he moved there.
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Offline DMBEAR

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #398 on: December 09, 2009, 01:25:40 AM »
Anderson Cooper just told me that he visited the Ice cap and it is in fact melting.  The fact that I did not see a woman in the interview leads me to believe that those guys were rollin around creating unatural friction that has melted the caps.

We need to stop those flamers from melting the caps.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 01:27:28 AM by DMBEAR »

Offline Angus

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #399 on: December 09, 2009, 03:04:51 AM »
Viperius:
"What about the rest of the 4.54 billion years into the past, a chart with a mere 120 years"
Where was civilization in the past billions of years. Wait a minute, it's only some 10.000 years old! And modern times some mere 100 years.
Trust me, civilization would quickly collapse if you'd give it some jurassic weather :D
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Offline Viperius

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #400 on: December 09, 2009, 04:06:53 AM »
Viperius:
"What about the rest of the 4.54 billion years into the past, a chart with a mere 120 years"
Where was civilization in the past billions of years. Wait a minute, it's only some 10.000 years old! And modern times some mere 100 years.
Trust me, civilization would quickly collapse if you'd give it some jurassic weather :D

Your whole argument is based on that human civilization has caused this warming when all data from the past (and not just a 100years) show that CO2 levels have and will always fluctuate, its a very cheap trick to take 120years and go look it goes up because of us, while ignoring the huge spikes that happened over the last billion years.

Humans account for 0,0019% of all the CO2 today in other words 99.9981% is out of our control. Climate changes as it did for billion of years and it will continue to change till the Sun ends it all in a few billion years when it consumes earth before dieing.

And besides if politicians and their lobbist friends really wanted to make a difference they would immediately stop all deforestation and other things that really mess up our environment but that wouldnt fill their pockets.
I can't wait for the next big profit scheme were they will probably tell us that we have to stop the tectonic plates from shifting or some other BS.





« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 04:16:39 AM by Viperius »

Offline WMLute

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #401 on: December 09, 2009, 04:33:17 AM »
What is the deal with the recent media blitz that is pro global warming?

I just sat through a segment on CNN that was full of so many blatant lies that it couldn't even be considered journalism.

Is there some vote coming up?

Whos agenda is getting shoved down the craw of the masses?
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #402 on: December 09, 2009, 04:57:07 AM »
Hunt up the oldest person you can find and ask them.  :D I dont care to answer and get banned.  :devil

...but to anyone that lived through the last seventy years or so it would be obvious.
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Offline 33Vortex

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #403 on: December 09, 2009, 05:04:01 AM »
What is the deal with the recent media blitz that is pro global warming?

I just sat through a segment on CNN that was full of so many blatant lies that it couldn't even be considered journalism.

Is there some vote coming up?

Whos agenda is getting shoved down the craw of the masses?

Whoever wants to establish a world government and control the entire world. I'm confident in my view of who is behind all this but I know it wouldn't sit well with the general crowd here. What goes on with the GW issue today runs through the entire society of the entire western world. GW is not the only lie they mislead the people with. It all revolves around control and money is today the most important means of controlling people, more so than ever before. We are all caged up and unable to ever gain the power and leverage to be a threat to these elitists. They have during the course of a couple hundred years secured their position at the top and built a fortress of lies and even a legislation to support them. Even a good portion of our tax money go to these people. Nothing will remove this entity short of a full scale revolution to root out the problem.

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Offline bj229r

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #404 on: December 09, 2009, 05:38:53 AM »
I saw an interview with Dr James Hansen last night who bought up an interesting point about an amplifying effect brought on by ice melting etc.

JAMES HANSEN: Yeah, well that's what makes climate a really dangerous situation, because of the inertia of the system. It takes the ocean a long time to warm up, it's four kilometres deep, and it takes icesheets a long time to get started to move, they're very thick and have a lot of inertia.
The problem is that as these changes begin to occur, and they are beginning to occur - Greenland is losing ice faster and faster and Antarctica is beginning to lose ice at a rate of about 150 cubic kilometres per year - as you get to a certain point, you can get to a point where the dynamics of the system begins to take over.
If the icesheets begin to collapse, by that time it's too late. You've passed the tipping point and the icesheet is going to end up in the ocean. So, that's one of the tipping points. Another one is methane hydrates. We're beginning to see methane bubble out of the tundra as it's melting.
There's a lot more methane hydrates on continental shelves. As the ocean warms that methane hydrate can also begin to release methane, which is a very strong greenhouse gas and can cause amplifying feedback which makes the global warming much larger.
And this is not idle speculation, because we can look at the history of the earth. And in past global warming events we have seen those kind of amplifying feedbacks which then make the change extremely large.


I'm not sure if thats what you were asking about, but he did bring up a few interesting responses about the emails and the ETS/Cap and Trade.

Video: http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/lateline/video/podcast/r482937_2469107.wmv
Transcript:http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2008/s2764523.htm


 Tronsky
Yes...but he doesn't address my basic, seemingly EASY to answer question: HOW DOES 3/4 OF ONE DEGREE CENTIGRADE OVER 100 YEARS MAKE THE ICE CAPS MELT?
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