Author Topic: Whistle blowing on Global Warming  (Read 117663 times)

Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #705 on: December 25, 2009, 08:23:49 AM »
Well isn't that a theory too?

i've not seen any problems with your posts. you get your thoughts across very well.

 to my eye, you just seem fairly well brainwashed(not meant as an insult)

like someone else said.....it's produced by the process of the earth doing what she does. abiatic" i think it was called?

 try to think of your body. it makes blood and bone, right? i might be using a bad analogy, but sometimes i have trouble getting my thoughts out of my head.(still at 47)

 if you read in one of those links, when they found oil in the dried up wells, they tested it. it was significantly younger than the oil they had previously gotten from that well. and it was filling from the bottom.

 the worst that may happen, is that we could use it faster than it can be regenerated.

 but, not only our oil....but natural gas and coal come from the same process. coal burns much dirtier than anything.

 in the long run, some form of hydrogen would(in my opinion) be the best alternative to burning oil.

 electricity will still burn oil, unless we have other ways of generating electricity...

So this debate is about the formation of oil?  Well we can't really disprove each other's theories, as both could have easily happened.  The question still remains, how much of the stuff in the mantle to make oil still remains.  I know that eventually you will run out.  This is due the law of conservation of matter.  It states that in all chemical reactions (If this is nuclear or quantum, I'm the wrong guy), no matter can be created or destroyed. 

What you are describing is the creation of matter.  Now unless you have a whole lot of energy under the surface, I doubt that you will see fundamental particles forming together to make oil.  (I remain open minded, there are actually space clouds of drinkable alcohol!)

Now I think I see what you are trying to say:

1. Continue burning oil for fuel
2. It will do absolutely nothing to the climate

For some reason, I find that pumping billions of tons of gas into the atmosphere and expecting nothing to happen seems very hard to believe.  Now along with the CO2, you're getting CFC's which break apart ozone particles.  You can't deny that a huge hole opens over the south pole every once in a while (annually).

(Hope this isn't a strawman :O)

That is what really worries me.   

-Penguin
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 08:30:52 AM by Penguin »

Offline gunnss

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #706 on: December 25, 2009, 11:01:38 AM »
 A simple exercise,
 Take the total weight of the earths air,

(53,000,000,000,000,000,000 Kg or 11,684,400,000,000,000,000 Lb or 5,842,200,000,000,000 tons)

http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/weight_of_earths_atmosphere

Take the percentage of CO2,

(.03 to .04% or 17,526,600,000 to 23,368,800,000 tons)

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-i/air-mixture/air-mixtureindex.php

Man made contribution to the CO2 is about 3.225%
at the high end, that is 760,654,440 tons

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-i/air-mixture/air-mixtureindex.php

Which makes mans total contribution to the atmosphere about .0000001302% (1,302 x 10 to the -7)

An amount that is almost not detectable with current instruments

To be fair the human contributions to Greenhouse CO2 is bigger about .28%....

Cutting emissions in half would reduce the CO2 by less than two tenths of a percent.

Regards,
Kevin
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #707 on: December 25, 2009, 11:21:27 AM »
Well isn't that a theory too?

So this debate is about the formation of oil?  Well we can't really disprove each other's theories, as both could have easily happened.  The question still remains, how much of the stuff in the mantle to make oil still remains.  I know that eventually you will run out.  This is due the law of conservation of matter.  It states that in all chemical reactions (If this is nuclear or quantum, I'm the wrong guy), no matter can be created or destroyed. 

What you are describing is the creation of matter.  Now unless you have a whole lot of energy under the surface, I doubt that you will see fundamental particles forming together to make oil.  (I remain open minded, there are actually space clouds of drinkable alcohol!)

Now I think I see what you are trying to say:

1. Continue burning oil for fuel
2. It will do absolutely nothing to the climate

For some reason, I find that pumping billions of tons of gas into the atmosphere and expecting nothing to happen seems very hard to believe.  Now along with the CO2, you're getting CFC's which break apart ozone particles.  You can't deny that a huge hole opens over the south pole every once in a while (annually).

(Hope this isn't a strawman :O)

That is what really worries me.   

-Penguin

the theory that the earth is producing oil is provable(is that really a word?) simply by the fact that there is "new" oil in wells that were sucked dry.

 co2 is not a pollutant. you exhale co2 with every breath you take. plants, trees, plankton, and i'm sure more that i don't know about exhale o2 with each breath.(i know they don't actually "breathe" as we do, but you get the point, yes?)

 co2 is an integral part of the atmosphere.

 i know what you thought as soon as you read those last statements......you thought "but the EPA says it is a pollutant.", and "that's what Copenhagen was all about."

 copenhagen first. they were not even remotely attempting to lower pollution. they were talking about trading carbon credits. about the "rich" countries paying into a pool to help the "poor" countries develop. for the most part nothing more than a worldwide redistribution of wealth.
 in the process of that summit, there were dozens of people flew in on private jets. there were over a hundred limos. for the most part they more than likely created more pollution of every type in that place, in one single week, than there has been there in the last full year.

 now the EPA. i can only speak of them concerning automotive, as i've never really studied their powers/rules/restrictions outside of automotive.

 they were kind of a good idea. cars were horribly inefficient. one could pass out standing behind the tailpipe of a big block in the 50's or 60's.
 the problem was/is that they were given too much power. their governing body is not voted on. they're appointed. they generally seem to be engineers, that live in the world of theory.

 they implement rules, and regulations on us for our cars. the good thing, is that is why our cars now make 3x the power on 1/2 of the engine.
 the bad thing about that, is that in reality(with a few exceptions) our engines are still horribly inefficient. this is bandaged with emissions control devices, and computer control systems.
 some have finally started working on the engine itself, with things such as variable valve timing. ford pioneered an ignition system years ago that could control the complete ignition timing of each cylinder individually. it could control the spark voltage, timing, and duration. \

 the catalytic converter was one of the epa's babys. it uses chemical reactions, and temp. to convert  hc(hydrocarbons) co(carbon monoxide) and nox(oxides of nitrogen) into.......you guessed it......co2(carbon dioxide)
 now, of those listed above.....hc....well....they're oil(or in this case, unburned fuel) which insinuates incomplete combustion.
co......insinuates that too much fuel is in the process, and it cannot all be burned. co is at least 10 times more deadly than co2.

nox.......these form when the combustion temp raises above 2500f. these are also about 10 times more deadly than co, making them at least 20 times more deadly than co2.

co2...inert. harmless, unless there's no o2.

as per the epa's standards, a well functioning catalytic converter puts out anywhere from 13% to 15% co2. this is a sign that it is heated up properly, and that the o2 sensors are working properly.

 now, suddenly, 30 years later, that same agency, comes out and says co2 is a pollutant? it is not.

 we can effect our local environments...i fully believe in that, and i do recycle, etc. but for anyone to think that mankind, as insignificant as we are can effect the climate.....that is a very dangerous, and pompous attitude.

 one final thought........has anyone ever done a study on the outer atmosphere? i would think/imagine, that some "leaks" out. some temp....like a glass full of ice sweating.....it leaks it's temp into the surrounding area. i would imagine part of our atmosphere must do the same.


merry christmas.
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Offline ghi

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #708 on: December 25, 2009, 11:40:08 AM »

Offline fudgums

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Offline Angus

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #710 on: December 26, 2009, 09:22:42 AM »
A simple exercise,
 Take the total weight of the earths air,

(53,000,000,000,000,000,000 Kg or 11,684,400,000,000,000,000 Lb or 5,842,200,000,000,000 tons)

http://physics.suite101.com/article.cfm/weight_of_earths_atmosphere

Take the percentage of CO2,

(.03 to .04% or 17,526,600,000 to 23,368,800,000 tons)

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-i/air-mixture/air-mixtureindex.php

Man made contribution to the CO2 is about 3.225%
at the high end, that is 760,654,440 tons

http://www.tutorvista.com/content/chemistry/chemistry-i/air-mixture/air-mixtureindex.php

Which makes mans total contribution to the atmosphere about .0000001302% (1,302 x 10 to the -7)

An amount that is almost not detectable with current instruments

To be fair the human contributions to Greenhouse CO2 is bigger about .28%....

Cutting emissions in half would reduce the CO2 by less than two tenths of a percent.

Regards,
Kevin

Are you sure on the decimal there? AFAIK the co2 in the atmosphere has about doubled since the industrial revolution. That does not account for most of it though, since it gets bound in the sea.
Anyway, always good to roll around some numbers and ponder on them!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #711 on: December 26, 2009, 10:08:48 AM »
Right, but only under certain conditions.  You say we have such a small amount of co2 in the atmosphere, but how do you know exactly how much is too much?  Ten percent is lethal to humans, and I can't imagine how two or three percent wouldn't put a strain on our bodies.

A few percent more oxygen was in the atmosphere 65 million years ago.  This allowed dinosaurs to walk the earth, if we saw a similar increase in co2, don't you think we would see ill effects?  Our biological reactions with surprisingly small amounts of chemicals.  To throw off that balance would most certainly be harmful.

Just some thoughts,

-Penguin

Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #712 on: December 26, 2009, 10:20:28 AM »
Right, but only under certain conditions.  You say we have such a small amount of co2 in the atmosphere, but how do you know exactly how much is too much?  Ten percent is lethal to humans, and I can't imagine how two or three percent wouldn't put a strain on our bodies.

A few percent more oxygen was in the atmosphere 65 million years ago.  This allowed dinosaurs to walk the earth, if we saw a similar increase in co2, don't you think we would see ill effects?  Our biological reactions with surprisingly small amounts of chemicals.  To throw off that balance would most certainly be harmful.

Just some thoughts,

-Penguin

if you want to worry about a lethal gas, perhaps you should look at co, or nox.
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #713 on: December 26, 2009, 02:18:14 PM »
if you want to worry about a lethal gas, perhaps you should look at co, or nox.

No, CAP he is correct.  CO2 becomes toxic to humans at around [10%].  If this weren't the case, they wouldn't scrub the carbon dioxide out of the air on nuclear submarines. 
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #714 on: December 26, 2009, 03:28:30 PM »
No, CAP he is correct.  CO2 becomes toxic to humans at around [10%].  If this weren't the case, they wouldn't scrub the carbon dioxide out of the air on nuclear submarines. 

you missed my point.

co is more deadly than co2. i don't know by how much. i do know that nox is 10 times more deadly than co.

 co is more insidious than others, and its affect is cumulative. i'd worry about them first.

there aren't any natural sources that scrub them for us.
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #715 on: December 26, 2009, 05:43:21 PM »
you missed my point.


there aren't any natural sources that scrub them for us.

Nothing.....
Besides a naturally rich oxygen atmosphere ~21%, you mean.

 Both have short half lives in a stable O2 rich environment, and quickly bond. If they didn't bond with free O2, we'd have died a long long time ago, prior to the invention of the catalytic converter, that spits out CO at 7,000 ppm per second. CO can only form amongst a shortage of Oxygen and rapidly oxidizes to form CO2 when Oxygen is present.  Chemistry, my friend.  Read about it.
Quote
Carbon monoxide concentrations are both short-lived in the atmosphere and spatially variable
 CO is deadly to humans in high concentration as it bonds to hemoglobin, but does not release, and causes anoxemia. This is why you don't die if you have the car on and the garage door open.  There is adequate space and oxygen to oxidize or minimize the concentration of CO.

NOx oxidizes to make NO2, which is key to nitric acid, that causes acid rain.  Acid rain is a serious issue, and I would agree it needs to be addressed.  



« Last Edit: December 26, 2009, 06:15:03 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #716 on: December 26, 2009, 06:03:03 PM »
Nothing.....
Besides a naturally rich oxygen atmosphere ~21%, you mean.

 Both have short half lives in a stable O2 rich environment, and quickly bond. If they didn't bond with free O2, we'd have died a long long time ago, after the invention of the catalytic converter, that spits out CO at 7,000 ppm per second. CO can only form amongst a shortage of Oxygen and rapidly oxidizes to form CO2 when Oxygen is present.  Chemistry, my friend.  Read about it.  CO is only deadly to humans in high concentration as it bonds to hemoglobin, but does not release, and causes anoxemia.

NOx bonds to free O2 to make NO2, which is key to nitric acid, that causes acid rain.  Acid rain is a serious issue, and I would agree it needs to be addressed. 





catalytic converters spit out next to 0...that's zero co. the convert it into co2. hence the name "catalytic converter". they also convert hc,,,,,,,well, actually they burn the hc off.

 my point about co was that when inhaled...as you realize.......interferes with the bloods ability to absorb o2. to the best of my knowledge, this is cumulative too.
 so we have co2, that displaces o2......when there's enough of it......and we have co that inhibits our ability to breathe for all intents and purposes. and there doesn't need to be much of it.

the three way catalytic converter stores o2, then releases it to convert co to co2. it cycles constantly, using a duty cycle, thus lowering the truly deadly emissions.
 i was partially wrong about nox though. most cars use an egr system to reduce this gas. very few use the catalytic converter for that. the egr system gives more precise control over it.


 here's a stats page on carbon monoxide poisoning.
http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/c/carbon_monoxide_poisoning/stats-country.htm

here's another one. haven't found any about co2 killing anyone yet....well....unless we can count plastic bags over the head.....
this one below is interesting though.

http://www.nutramed.com/environment/monoxide.htm

Physiology

When Carbon Monoxide is inhaled, the CO combines with the hemoglobin to form carboxyhemoglobin or COHb. The CO displaces the oxygen on hemoglobin. The COHb bond is over 200 times stronger than oxygen's bond with hemoglobin. The strong COHb bond also makes it difficult for the body to eliminate CO  from the blood. Carbon Monoxide can poison slowly over a period of several hours, even in low concentrations.. Sensitive organs such as the brain, heart, and lungs suffer the most from a lack of oxygen. Unfortunately, the symptoms of CO poisoning are easily mistaken for other common illnesses and CO poisonings are often misdiagnosed.

Symptoms such as headaches, dizziness and fatigue are common to a number of illnesses such as the flu or the common cold. These symptoms can occur with a COHb blood saturation levels of 10-30%. At 30-50% COHb symptoms are nausea, severe headaches, dizziness, and increased pulse and respiration. COHb levels over 50% cause progressive symptoms proceeding to loss of consciousness, collapse, convulsions, coma, and finally death.

How much is dangerous? High concentrations of carbon monoxide kill in less than five minutes. At low concentrations it will require a longer period of time to affect the body. Exceeding the EPA concentration of 9 ppm for more than 8 hours will have adverse health affects. The U.S. Occupational Health and Safety limit for healthy workers is 50 ppm.

Carbon monoxide detectors, which are designed to protect against high concentration of carbon monoxide are required to sound an alarm when concentrations are greater than 100 ppm. Continued exposure to carbon monoxide can cause permanent brain, nerve, or heart damage. Some people require years to recover while others might never fully recover. The time of exposure, the concentration of CO, the activity level of the person breathing the CO, and the person's age, sex, and general health all affect the danger level. Exposure to Co at a concentration of 400 ppm will cause headaches in 1 to 2 hours; in 3 to 5 hours the same concentration can lead to unconsciousness and death. Physical exertion, with an accompanying increase in respiration rate, shortens the time to critical levels by 2 or 3 fold. Respiratory capacity decreases and the risk of heart attack increases at levels well below 50 ppm.
CO poisoning should be suspected when


 co2 does nothing like this.

 while i do agree that we need to conserve somewhat, i do not agree that the sky is falling, nor are we producing enough co2 to harm ourselves.

BTW,,,,,,look back up a few posts. i think i asked you a question up there, that is as of yet unanwswered. something to do with the suns cycle causing us to be cooler now? but to look out when it "starts" up again?

 
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #717 on: December 26, 2009, 06:25:31 PM »

BTW,,,,,,look back up a few posts. i think i asked you a question up there, that is as of yet unanwswered. something to do with the suns cycle causing us to be cooler now? but to look out when it "starts" up again?

 

I didn't see a question.... but I knew someone would say that that contradicts my stated point.  The sun is at a solar minimum.  [CO2]  is at the highest level recorded.  Both are important.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #718 on: December 26, 2009, 06:44:48 PM »
I didn't see a question.... but I knew someone would say that that contradicts my stated point.  The sun is at a solar minimum.  [CO2]  is at the highest level recorded.  Both are important.

correct....and they both cycle.


but......would you not agree, that if we cool(as we are now) when the sun "calms down", and then warm up(as they say we were) when the sun is "hyper" or more active, then would it not be a safer and more logical assumption that these climate changes are nothing more than a result of the suns activity?


here's one i just found on NOx.......it's pretty interesting. i'm sure you already know everythign in it though.


i have to go eat. when i get done, i'll explain exactly how a catalytic converter works.

 i'm not trying to be a wise ass......i get the impression you have a couple of mis-conceptions about them, from your previous post.
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #719 on: December 26, 2009, 10:25:24 PM »
correct....and they both cycle.


but......would you not agree, that if we cool(as we are now) when the sun "calms down", and then warm up(as they say we were) when the sun is "hyper" or more active, then would it not be a safer and more logical assumption that these climate changes are nothing more than a result of the suns activity?






No I would not.  The sun has been through about 20 cycles since the Industrial Revolution.  Although the first half of that data on climate is debatable, there is an obvious trend that extends between cycles upward with regard to temperature.  Solar output is not to blame for that, as it hasn't changed in average intensity. 

"Ocean: A body of water occupying 2/3 of a world made for man...who has no gills."
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