Author Topic: Whistle blowing on Global Warming  (Read 131012 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1050 on: January 18, 2010, 08:04:43 AM »
Indeed you're right. There is an overfocus on Co2. But remember to refer to it as Carbon not Co2. It sounds dirtier. The whole thing has overshadowed very real ecological and enviromental issues. Real issues.

yes, because as you, and others have mentioned  earlier, there is a lot of money tied to proving this theory.

 if it is disproven, people will lose jobs, there may be companies(that build/design pollution control systems) and even trading will be hurt.

 regardless of the outcome, the oil companies will continue to make their money. they've got their claws pretty well spread out.
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Offline Angus

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1051 on: January 18, 2010, 09:11:57 AM »
Indeed you're right. There is an overfocus on Co2. But remember to refer to it as Carbon not Co2. It sounds dirtier. The whole thing has overshadowed very real ecological and enviromental issues. Real issues.
  :aok

I can call it carbon. Basic issue is increased carbon being released from ancient storage and added to the biosphere. Fair enough ;)

And Cap1....There is no way our erthling rollercoaster can carry on as it is for long. This "theory" of CO2->GW should still be studied intensively rather than heeding Exxon's advice and poking the head into the sand :D
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1052 on: January 18, 2010, 12:17:58 PM »
Does it matter that the Great Lakes area was covered in nearly a mile of glacial ice only a few thousand years ago? Global warming must have been caused by those half ape, half human bonfires.

 :huh

Evidence of climate change?

 

Strip

Again, Strip,you continue to use arguments that can be shot down.  We know exactly why the Ice Ages happened and exactly why they stopped.  Orbital Mechanics....Milankovitch cycles.



Using this as an argument against the current thread is logical suicide.... it is already understood. Nobody is denying previous shifts in climate.  What they are saying is that there is a current artificial one, since there isn't an explanation in natural variability, and there is a firm understanding in previous CO2 forcing events which occurred naturally.  Saying "Well there were glaciers 10,000 years ago....blah blah blah" means absolutely nothing to the discussion.  Apples to Oranges.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 12:29:32 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1053 on: January 18, 2010, 12:24:18 PM »
perhaps i'm missing your point, but i fail to see anything illogical about it. would you care to enlighten me?

You state that you think that mankind can affect the planet on a "small scale".....but not on a planet-wide one.

But, that is illogical.

By changing any system on a small scale you invariably change the system as a whole.  It is impossible not too.   
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Offline Strip

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1054 on: January 18, 2010, 12:32:28 PM »
No its not understood,  at least not in how it effects the climate and its cycles.

Your argument is based on the idea that the earth is a linear system, cooling and warming proportional to orbit changes. In a complex system like the earth the reality could very well be that there is a delay between cause and effect. Even to the extent that the delay is unequal and changes that occur do so at a variable rate. Until you can tell me that we fully understand that relationship your swimming upstream.

The laws of statistics also dictate that even in simple systems drastic swings can occur even though inputs are relatively stable.

Strip

Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1055 on: January 18, 2010, 01:07:20 PM »
You state that you think that mankind can affect the planet on a "small scale".....but not on a planet-wide one.

But, that is illogical.

By changing any system on a small scale you invariably change the system as a whole.  It is impossible not too.   

NO....

i stated that we can affect the planet by polluting it. that is a seperate argument. we cannot affect the climate is what i stated.
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Offline rstel01

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1056 on: January 18, 2010, 01:17:12 PM »
Maybe I am being oversimplistic (Moray, without busting your balls go ahead and explain it) but I look at it like this:

July 15 1942, the lost squadron of P-38's goes down in Greenland



1992 under 268 feet of Snow and Ice pack which had accumulated over the past 50 years recovery begins



To where we are today



I don't see the accumulation of 268 foot of ice and snow accumulation in less than 50 years to support "Global Warming"

Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1057 on: January 18, 2010, 01:21:46 PM »
NO....

i stated that we can affect the planet by polluting it. that is a seperate argument. we cannot affect the climate is what i stated.

Can we affect the climate on a small scale? At all? 
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1058 on: January 18, 2010, 01:33:34 PM »
Can we affect the climate on a small scale? At all? 


no.

if i'm wrong, please explain?
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1059 on: January 18, 2010, 01:51:06 PM »
Maybe I am being oversimplistic (Moray, without busting your balls go ahead and explain it) but I look at it like this:

July 15 1942, the lost squadron of P-38's goes down in Greenland

(Image removed from quote.)

1992 under 268 feet of Snow and Ice pack which had accumulated over the past 50 years recovery begins

(Image removed from quote.)

To where we are today

(Image removed from quote.)

I don't see the accumulation of 268 foot of ice and snow accumulation in less than 50 years to support "Global Warming"

It snows in Greenland.  I'm shocked.  

The theory is ruined.   :lol



Snow falls in the interior, forms a glacier pack, and moves.  Greenland averaged ~3.0 meters of snow for the period 1940 until 1990(After which it actually increases to around 9.5 meters per year... An effect predicted by climate change, btw).  Glacier Girl crash landed on 15 July '42, on an interior shelf in southeast Greenland.  It was recovered almost exactly 50 years later.  A simple bit of calculations will give you 50 years x 3.0 meters=150 meters accumulate.

450 feet feet of snow, then packed into glacier ice, yields around 300 feet of ice.  They pulled it out of 268 feet of ice.  Seems about right.

Again, glaciers are bad predictors of climate, until very late in any shift.  Their formation depends more upon snowfall than ambient air temps.  Recently, it has been shown that Greenland's glaciers are growing at the accumulation field, and melting faster at the ablation zone.  The net yield of the glacier may actually shift up due to the increased snowfall, but the amount lost will move up with the increased melt at the ablation zone.

Remember a warmer atmosphere supports more snowfall, as well, because warmer air holds more water (CLIMATE).  Local conditions dictate how that water falls...(WEATHER)(Which may be why Greenland has shown an increase in snow for the past two decades.)




« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:09:55 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1060 on: January 18, 2010, 01:58:10 PM »
no.

if i'm wrong, please explain?

http://www.newsweek.com/id/228574
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/goddard/news/topstory/2004/0603amazondry.html
http://www.epa.gov/hiri/

All examples of local climate affected by people.  Again, if you can affect local climate, affecting global climate is an absolute certainty.

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1061 on: January 18, 2010, 02:08:59 PM »
It snows in Greenland.  I'm shocked.  

The theory is ruined.   :lol

(Image removed from quote.)

Snow falls in the interior, forms a glacier pack, and moves.  Greenland averaged ~3.0 meters of snow for the period 1940 until 1990(After which it actually increases to around 9.5 meters per year... An effect predicted by climate change, btw).  Glacier Girl crash landed on 15 July '42, on an interior shelf in southeast Greenland.  It was recovered almost exactly 50 years later.  A simple bit of calculations will give you 50 years x 3.0 meters=150 meters accumulate.

450 feet feet of snow, then packed into glacier ice, yields around 300 feet of ice.  They pulled it out of 268 feet of ice.  Seems about right.

Again, glaciers are bad predictors of climate, until very late in any shift.  Their formation depends more upon snowfall than ambient air temps.  Recently, it has been shown that Greenland's glaciers are growing at the accumulation field, and melting faster at the ablation zone.  The net yield of the glacier may actually shift up due to the increased snowfall, but the amount lost will move up with the increased melt at the ablation zone.







THE  point is, that it didn't melt. its melting would support global warming. its not melting supports non global warming.

 thanks for the links in your other post....i will read them tonight, when i can pay proper attention to them.  :aok
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1062 on: January 18, 2010, 02:11:07 PM »
THE  point is, that it didn't melt. its melting would support global warming. its not melting supports non global warming.

 thanks for the links in your other post....i will read them tonight, when i can pay proper attention to them.  :aok

No, the point is that glaciers don't melt uniformly, no more than an ice cube does.  It melts at the edges, and is insulated at the top by solid ice and barely above freezing pools of water, negating surface loss.  We are still talking about an area that stays below freezing a majority of the year. (THE INTERIOR OF GREENLAND)  Add to that most of it is above 2,000 meters....

In order for something to "melt" something has to remove the cold water away and allow the warm temp to contact the ice surface, otherwise it insulates that surface.  This is why an ice cube melts at its' edges...

The melt at the edge has accelerated, as documented by many studies.  http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://cires.colorado.edu/steffen/greenland/melt2005/melt2005and1992.5inch.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cires.colorado.edu/steffen/greenland/melt2005/&h=1042&w=1500&sz=394&tbnid=C3xVmO6Qqq0b2M:&tbnh=104&tbnw=150&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgreenland%2Bmelt&usg=__kF3AqMvlG_BGSaz4pjSQhAKbwwQ=&ei=WMFUS5PFHpKXtge04bywCQ&sa=X&oi=image_result&resnum=4&ct=image&ved=0CBQQ9QEwAw




Glacier Girl was excavated from a point that still hasn't shown "melt", or was only recently shown to have so (2005), and was still within the accumulation field of the glacier it was encased.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 02:30:14 PM by MORAY37 »
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1063 on: January 18, 2010, 06:39:04 PM »
Srry my mistake i got a little sloppy. How do you know " a few billion years".  and I know what the forensic evidence is. Im just saying you cant test it to make it a quotable fact. We can on faith only guess that our sun will do what we have seen, How many other stars blow up? We darn sure don't know what caused it because you can't test it yet.  There is a difference in seeing a spectrograph and being to test that data to make it scientific theory.


Sonicblu, you are an inductive skeptic.  Your objection is philosophical, not empirical.

Take a philosophy course that includes David Hume and report back here after you've learned the real deal.

LOL you act like IM the one that doesnt understand what is going on.  AH maybe i don't but i think i do :rofl
]


You are partially right. This is what i find interesting is how you try to twist or dont understand it.  MY objection is philosophical I never said other wise. . The real question is, objection to what? Which you seem to have missed completely.  MY objection was to the logical value of quoted arguements. NOT GLOBAL WARMING.  I even stated that earlier you must not have read it.

You want to attack personally but you cant stick to the line of reaoning or wont. Just because i used a keyword "empirical" doesnt mean I am an empiricist.  "Faith" is believe in something with out sound proof. or put another faith is the belief in things based on evidence of things not seen. Science does it all the time.  We can't see gravity. We can only observe the effects of it. I believe the earth it round Ive never emperically seen it though. Because I believe the forensic data that I have seen. Tell me this, have you made the same decision about the earth being round? How do you know? Don't tell me there is a we bit of faith there. Faith is not blind though.

This includes forensic science. Forensic science attempts to recreate how things happen, but you didnt see happen. We can only look at the evidence. I dont have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with inductive reasoning either. My problem is with HOW it is being used to form poor arguements.

Im saying that I dont accept the quoted "facts" in support of GW. Can I not question these facts.  I am in no danger at this point to prove GW false, am I?
Some of what is quoted as a scientific theory is just not. If I am wrong show me.

I do think we all have philosophical objections here and there. Is there something wrong with that? Just because they show me a picture of cowboys on a pack a cigarettes doesn't mean that if I smoke them I'll be a cowboy. Yet that is what they are implying.

Is there truth? If there is, can I know it? If truth does exist, it exists for both of us.



Why would you try to label me inductive skeptic.  Part of the problem is we are in what is called violent agrement right now on some things. And we have the nasty habit of not giving up on A or B because it might be a trap and lead to C.

The bottom line on climate change if it is man made. How do you solve it. The deep structure to an argument if favor of man made climate change is who gets to decide how to fix it. then what those fixes might be. Are we going to trust the overlapping global corp govts who created it to solve it? 

Im building a home right now that will be off the grid solar powered. I have chosen to make some changes.

However all i hear out of Denmark is genicide and control of the world populations.  While world leaders get to fly jets to talk about it.


 By the way attacks on my persona just make me yawn.




Offline Fishu

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1064 on: January 18, 2010, 09:43:48 PM »
Himalaya most likely without ice by 2035? Perhaps not so likely:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article6991177.ece

Once again we can thank IPPC for misleading the world with false information and of course without any real scientific research to support the false claims. Looks like they're making up alot of research purely out of their #2.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2010, 09:49:00 PM by Fishu »