Author Topic: Whistle blowing on Global Warming  (Read 117237 times)

Offline kilo2

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1365 on: February 03, 2010, 12:37:04 PM »
This is just going round and around.  It really isn't worth going about anymore....every point is a point of contention and there isn't a single person here even remotely skeptical, besides perhaps Anax and CAP..... your minds are made up and aren't open to the simplest of explanations, even the basic analysis of data is misunderstood and questioned. You call yourselves skeptical.... but many of you have made up your minds by being told by Fox News what is going on.  I haven't seen a single rebuttal worth arguing over yet...just posting of news stories...if anyone even bothers to do even that.

There is absolutely no ability to find any perspective of common ground from which to even frame a debate.

 It just isn't worth the time I've spent on it.  I've enjoyed the polite debate with some, but I'm really tired of the personal vendettas on here. When in the past two pages I've been called stupid, a tool, had my intelligence questioned.....etc etc....


 Enjoy the remainder of the thread.  I'm out.  When it ceases to be fun, there's no point in continuing.  I'll just end up PNG'd.

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I'm out.

Generalizing any one who doesn't agree with you as part of the denialist regime,ignorant,right wing,fox news watching people does not endear you to anyone. You then prop yourself(or any one who agrees with you) up as the only one who "knows" what they are talking about. You don't want a debate you want everyone to agree with you.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1366 on: February 03, 2010, 12:41:15 PM »
Generalizing any one who doesn't agree with you as part of the denialist regime,ignorant,right wing,fox news watching people does not endear you to anyone. You then prop yourself(or any one who agrees with you) up as the only one who "knows" what they are talking about. You don't want a debate you want everyone to agree with you.
.

i actually have to defend moray here.,.......he has been much more patient with many of us in here than i generally see or expect on these boards.

 the post you quoted, almost just sounds like he may have been in a bad mood when he read this thread.......
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1367 on: February 03, 2010, 01:12:31 PM »
Be interesting to cross check the weather stations used by GISS with the sites surveyed by http://www.surfacestations.org

With 78% of all US weather stations surveyed it's astounding how many fail to adhere to NOAA guidelines!



NOAA guidelines here (pdf) - http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/uscrn/documentation/program/X030FullDocumentD0.pdf

Is it any wonder there is so much skepticism on the temperature record!
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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1368 on: February 03, 2010, 03:10:58 PM »
Vulcan, since the stations aren't standardized with the same exact equipment, with the same maintenance and "zeroing procedure" , you introduce variance into your experiment with the increase in total stations.

So when was all the equipment standardized and zero'd using the same procedures, what year?

Offline Angus

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1369 on: February 03, 2010, 04:45:09 PM »
Moray is a biologist. A marine biologist.
I belive his sense for GW comes from his field of work rather than numbers that people are trying to haggle about.
The thing is, that GW will show it self in many forms. Air temp (that being divided into spheres and zones), ocean temps, Ice (that being a lot of things), and Moray's speciality,- LIFE.
Oddly enough, that is also my business, since I am a farmer. Moray is in the technical side of studying life, while I am on the business side. He has no special benefit from GW, while I actually do, so I have already started using it for my own benefit. So have my partners in the same trade. So has our fishing industry. And oddly, - so has the oil industry. The very nice new oil grounds opening due to retreating arctic ice must after all be quite a treat to companies that hire people to tell the world that the ice is not retreating.... :devil
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1370 on: February 03, 2010, 04:56:33 PM »
Be interesting to cross check the weather stations used by GISS with the sites surveyed by http://www.surfacestations.org

With 78% of all US weather stations surveyed it's astounding how many fail to adhere to NOAA guidelines!

(Image removed from quote.)

NOAA guidelines here (pdf) - http://www1.ncdc.noaa.gov/pub/data/uscrn/documentation/program/X030FullDocumentD0.pdf

Is it any wonder there is so much skepticism on the temperature record!

Holy cow!  That's freaky when you get to the bottom!

Angus, you do have a point there.  But here's my question, if AGW is going on, then how does that help farmers?  Doesn't it mean more irrigation?

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Offline Angus

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1371 on: February 03, 2010, 05:06:10 PM »
It helps and spoils. Those in the cooler areas like me do indeed benefit. Where you could barely grow barley some 20 years ago, you now grow wheat and rapeseed. So, as I say, it is simply in the business, and I always laugh at some "experts" treying to show me on paper that what I am doing should not be possible.
That said, we do get new plagues of all sorts that did not thrive before because of the cold. Fungus, bugs, etc.
Farmers in the warmer zones however have problems with droughts and more violent weathers. With more energy in the system, the extremes grow.
The Ocean system also tells it tale, our migrating stock that we fish is pushing north, while we get new species in quite some quantity that were not there before, - coming from the south.
No speculation of surface temps, just the fact of biological and industrial matters that in this case quite well agree, - upon warming.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline E25280

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1372 on: February 03, 2010, 06:25:36 PM »
This is just going round and around.  It really isn't worth going about anymore....every point is a point of contention and there isn't a single person here even remotely skeptical, besides perhaps Anax and CAP..... your minds are made up and aren't open to the simplest of explanations, even the basic analysis of data is misunderstood and questioned. You call yourselves skeptical.... but many of you have made up your minds by being told by Fox News what is going on.  I haven't seen a single rebuttal worth arguing over yet...just posting of news stories...if anyone even bothers to do even that.

There is absolutely no ability to find any perspective of common ground from which to even frame a debate.

 It just isn't worth the time I've spent on it.  I've enjoyed the polite debate with some, but I'm really tired of the personal vendettas on here. When in the past two pages I've been called stupid, a tool, had my intelligence questioned.....etc etc....


 Enjoy the remainder of the thread.  I'm out.  When it ceases to be fun, there's no point in continuing.  I'll just end up PNG'd.

(Image removed from quote.)
I'm out.
Sorry, but in all seriousness, it just sounds like you've decided it is too hard to continue to tote the party line given all the evidence the alarmists' case is on shaky ground at best and outright fraud at worst.

I have yet to see you concede a point in the skeptics favor despite the evidence presented.  Instead, you've been deflecting and changing the subject everytime you've been shown the "facts" you claim are false.

Now that it has been shown for a fact that the CRU/IPCC/Whoever are INDEED using a declining number of weather stations, and using those that tend to be warmest - again, rather than admit you were wrong, you simply quit the thread.  Quite convenient.

Perhaps instead of being willfully blind to contrary evidence, you yourself should use that scientific brain of yours to take another look at the issue with an open mind.
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Offline E25280

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1373 on: February 03, 2010, 06:59:42 PM »
Let's be clear about whether we're talking about the CRU or NASA's GISS, as batch was referring to the latter, not the former.

I'll give those links and graphs a look.
Here's another link to walk through when you have time.  I couldn't find it the other day (I thought it had been posted in this thread, but couldn't find it), but saw it posted on another board and thought you might like seeing, step by step, the kind of manipulation that has gone on in at least a few sites.

When you couple what appears to be outright manipulation of at least a few sites with the fact they are using fewer and fewer sites to get their figures (as the previous links showed), it is little wonder the data shows warming.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/12/08/the-smoking-gun-at-darwin-zero/
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Offline Penguin

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1374 on: February 04, 2010, 08:04:58 AM »
Read his post carefully, and look at the page count of the thread.  He's actually gotten a temporary ban and a warning from the skuzzmeister himself for breaking the rules.

He's worried about his temper, so he left to post another day.  You say that he hasn't conceded any points, but neither have you!

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Offline CAP1

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1375 on: February 04, 2010, 08:13:17 AM »
Read his post carefully, and look at the page count of the thread.  He's actually gotten a temporary ban and a warning from the skuzzmeister himself for breaking the rules.

He's worried about his temper, so he left to post another day.  You say that he hasn't conceded any points, but neither have you!

-Penguin
due to the fact that almost all of the data gathered in relation(favoring) to global warming is from sources that are known to have "doctored" their information.
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Offline Widewing

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1376 on: February 04, 2010, 09:32:25 AM »
I think we should give Moray lots of slack... He's being careful not to incite trouble, and his personal schedule is very daunting.

We can simply agree to disagree.



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Widewing
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Offline Mister Fork

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1377 on: February 04, 2010, 10:22:09 AM »
Is the variance in ocean temperatures a relationship to how we're polluting them v.s. any CO2 influences?
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Offline Kev367th

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1378 on: February 04, 2010, 11:11:08 AM »
Want a laugh?

Do a search for YAD061 and find out why it is the most important single tree in whole history of AGW.

[edited] missed off the 1.
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Offline Sonicblu

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Re: Whistle blowing on Global Warming
« Reply #1379 on: February 06, 2010, 01:38:34 PM »
Thought this was interesting........



by Mark Imisides
7th December 2009

Scarcely a day goes by without us being warned of coastal inundation by rising seas due to global warming.

Carbon dioxide, we are told, traps heat that has been irradiated by the oceans, and this warms the oceans and melts the polar ice caps. While this seems a plausible proposition at first glance, when one actually examines it closely a major flaw emerges

In a nutshell, water takes a lot of energy to heat up, and air doesn’t contain much. In fact, on a volume/volume basis, the ratio of heat capacities is about 3300 to 1. This means that to heat 1 litre of water by 1˚C it would take 3300 litres of air that was 2˚C hotter, or 1 litre of air that was about 3300˚C hotter!

This shouldn’t surprise anyone. If you ran a cold bath and then tried to heat it by putting a dozen heaters in the room, does anyone believe that the water would ever get hot?

The problem gets even stickier when you consider the size of the ocean. Basically, there is too much water and not enough air.

The ocean contains a colossal 1,500,000,000,000,000,000,000 litres of water! To heat it, even by a small amount, takes a staggering amount of energy. To heat it by a mere 1˚C, for example, an astonishing 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 joules of energy are required.

Let’s put this amount of energy in perspective. If we all turned off all our appliances and went and lived in caves, and then devoted every coal, nuclear, gas, hydro, wind and solar power plant to just heating the ocean, it would take a breathtaking 32,000 years to heat the ocean by just this 1˚C!

In short, our influence on our climate, even if we really tried, is miniscule!

So it makes sense to ask the question – if the ocean were to be heated by greenhouse warming of the atmosphere, how hot would the air have to get? If the entire ocean is heated by 1˚C, how much would the air have to be heated by to contain enough heat to do the job?

Well, unfortunately for every ton of water there is only a kilogram of air. Taking into account the relative heat capacities and absolute masses, we arrive at the astonishing figure of 4,000˚C.

That is, if we wanted to heat the entire ocean by 1˚C, and wanted to do it by heating the air above it, we’d have to heat the air to about 4,000˚C hotter than the water.

And another problem is that air sits on top of water – how would hot air heat deep into the ocean? Even if the surface warmed, the warm water would just sit on top of the cold water. Thus, if the ocean were being heated by greenhouse heating of the air, we would see a system with enormous thermal lag – for the ocean to be only slightly warmer, the land would have to be substantially warmer, and the air much, much warmer (to create the temperature gradient that would facilitate the transfer of heat from the air to the water).

Therefore any measurable warmth in the ocean would be accompanied by a huge and obvious anomaly in the air temperatures, and we would not have to bother looking at ocean temperatures at all. So if the air doesn’t contain enough energy to heat the oceans or melt the ice caps, what does? The earth is tilted on its axis, and this gives us our seasons. When the southern hemisphere is tilted towards the sun, we have more direct sunlight and more of it (longer days). When it is tilted away from the sun, we have less direct sunlight and less of it (shorter days). The direct result of this is that in summer it is hot and in winter it is cold. In winter we run the heaters in our cars, and in summer the air conditioners. In winter the polar caps freeze over and in summer 60-70% of them melt (about ten million square kilometers). In summer the water is warmer and winter it is cooler (ask any surfer).

All of these changes are directly determined by the amount of sunlight that we get. When the clouds clear and bathe us in sunlight, we don’t take off our jumper because of greenhouse heating of the atmosphere, but because of the direct heat caused by the sunlight on our body. The sun’s influence is direct, obvious, and instantaneous. If the enormous influence of the sun on our climate is so obvious, then, by what act of madness do we look at a variation of a fraction of a percent in any of these variables, and not look to the sun as the cause?

Why on earth (pun intended) do we attribute any heating of the oceans to carbon dioxide, when there is a far more obvious culprit, and when such a straightforward examination of the thermodynamics render it impossible.

The End

Mark Imisides is an industrial chemist working in the private sector.