Author Topic: Why British, Soviet and Japanese aircraft are better than U.S. and German in AH.  (Read 2247 times)

Offline Buzzbait

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1141
S!

I read all these posts by U.S. and German fans complaining their aircraft are underrated in one way or another.  The Russian, Japanese and Brits are all overdone.  Well, time to wake up and smell the coffee.  The modelling in AH is the most accurate of any Flight Sim around.  The designers have accurately portrayed the aircraft as they existed.  

The facts are, the various nations produced particular types of aircraft in order to fulfill their strategic goals.  What that meant is the performance of their fighter aircraft was tailored to meet their military requirements.  And most importantly, their military requirements were primarily centered around the delivery of ordinance, (in the case of the British, Americans and Russians)  or the prevention of the delivery of ordinance (in the case of the Japanese and Germans)  For example:

Britain:

Britain, (unlike the U.S.) made a decision in 1941 that they would build a strategic bomber fleet which would operate UNESCORTED at night.  (not counting the small number of Beaufighters and Mosquitos which operated in the night intruder roles)  This meant they DID NOT require a long range escort fighter.  Their needs were:

1)  Short range air superiority  

This role was assigned to the various Marks of Spitfires, and later to a smaller extent, the Tempests.  The Hurricanes were briefly used in this role in '41.  These aircraft had no requirement for large fuel capacity, armour protection, or heavy weaponry.  In the case of the Tempest, high altitude performance was sacrificed.

2)  Bomber Interceptors

This is what the Typhoon was initially designed for.  However, its altitude performance was not good.  It did do a fine job of dealing with the low level FW190 Jabo raids in 1942-43.  The Tempest filled in as an interceptor against the V1's.  Once again, no major design handicaps were imposed, thus performance was excellent.


3)  Ground attack

The Hurricane was initially assigned this role, but was superceded by the Typhoon when the threat of bombers diminished

Because the British did not need to concern themselves with escorting Strategic bombers long distances at high altitude, they could focus on performance from 20,000 ft down.  They could also design aircraft which were lighter and performed better versus other fighters.

Germany:

Germany had initially on one requirement:

1)  Short range Air Superiority  

The German airforce was a tactical airforce at the start of the conflict.  Its fighters were designed to establish air superiority over the battlefield in order that the Luftwaffe light and medium tactical bombers could strike the enemy ground forces.  The 109 and 190 were both designed for this role, and in the period 1940-1942 they were very successful, being the best performing fighters in the world.  They were designed to operate under 20,000 ft.  However, with the advent of the American Strategic bombing campaign, there was suddenly a requirement for another Fighter type.  The high altitude Interceptor.  Unfortunately for the Luftwaffe, due to Goering and Hitler's bad planning, they did not have anything which was designed for this role.  All the German resources, (which were now very limited due to the two front war they were fighting) went into interceptor developement, which meant the existing designs which could have been improved in their air superiority role, weren't.  The only aircraft developed for the air superiority role after 1941 was the 190D.  And it was a 'Patch' job.  As AH users are discovering, it is a very good fighter, and a tribute to the German designers.

With the 8th Air Force raids beginning to seriously affect German industry, the Germans had to adapt their existing fighter types to a different role.

2)  Interceptors  

This type is typified by high speed at altitude, heavy armament and good pilot protection.  An interceptor requires engine boosting systems to provide power at high altitudes as well as heating, sealed cockpits, and oxygen systems.  None of these requirements were completely fulfilled by either the 109 or 190.  The German designer's response was to accelerate new designs like the Me262, and in the meantime adapt the existing designs.  This meant huge compromises in performance.  For example, the 190's had sufficient armament and armour protection, but performance at altitude with all these encumbrances was inferior.  The 109's had good altitude performance initially, but when sufficient armament was added, then performance fell off.  In addition, the 109 was too fragile for a bomber interceptor.  But these modifications were carried out anyway.  And the result was the Luftwaffe fighters were generally inferior to their fighter opponents.

But the central factor in Germany's inferiority was economic.  With the limited resources they had, they could not afford the programs required to develop a completely new series of Air Superiority Fighters, they had to direct their energies towards the real threats.  Hence the pinnacle of German aircraft design was the Me262.  An Interceptor.  An aircraft not suited to the Fighter vs Fighter role.

Soviet Union

The Soviet Union's VVS was designed much like the Luftwaffe.  Its role was the delivery of ordinance on a Tactical level, on the battlefield.  Its Fighter requirements did not vary throughout the war.

Air superiority:

All of the Soviet Fighters (with the minor exception of the Mig-3) were designed to fight under 20,000 feet.  Usual operating altitude was between 5,000 and 10,000 feet.  They were intended to provide cover for the Soviet Ground attack Squadrons, and additionally to act in the ground support role as well.  There was no requirement for heavy weaponry, (there were no German Heavy bombers which would require mulitiple heavy  cannon to bring down) and no requirement for a long operating range.  This meant the aircraft could be light in design and therefore have better performance.  Heavy Armour protection was not particularly stressed either.

All of this added up to a type of fighter which does very well in the AH enviroment.

United States:

The U.S. had two main air services:  The USAAF and the USN.  Each had different requirements.

The USAAF had as its primary doctrine the concept of Daylight Strategic Bombing with heavy 4 engined aircraft operating at high altitude over very long ranges.  That meant its Fighter requirement was primarily:

High Altitude Long range Escort:

All of the big 3 U.S. Fighters, the P-38, P-47 and P-51 (Merlin engine model) were designed to provide escort for bombers at 20,000 feet and higher, (the B-17's were initially intended to bomb from 30,000 feet, but problems with cold resulted in them lowering their standard flight altitude)  while operating over long distances.  This meant they had to be larger aircraft, capable of carrying a lot of fuel.  They also required heavy engine boosting systems which would provide power at high altitudes as well as heating, sealed cockpits, and long range oxygen systems.  This all meant the aircraft were larger, heavier and less maneuverable.  That American Industry was able to produce extremely good aircraft, despite all these competitive disadvantages is a tribute to their genius.  At the altitudes at which the bombers were operating, the U.S. Fighters were superior to their opponents despite the requirement they fly very long distances to reach the combat zone.

Tactical Ground Support

As the numbers of opponents in the air diminished, an opportunity to use the Escort Fighters in a Ground support role presented itself.  Although they were not designed for this task, two of the big three (P-38, P-47) performed superbly.

USN

The USN's theater of operations was the vast region of the Pacific, which could only be controlled with Carrier forces.

Medium Range Carrier Fighters

The USN's requirements were for medium range Carrier operable air superiority fighters which would provide escort for Dive bombers and Torpedo planes operating under 10,000 feet, as well as CAP over the Carriers themselves. These aircraft needed longer range than comparable land based aircraft, (hence more space required for more fuel) due to the very long sea distances which they were required to fly.  Their undercarriages had to be sturdier to allow for the rigours of Sea landings, as well they needed to have folding wings, which also meant more weight.  Overall they needed more tolerances built into the aircraft to compensate for the conditions under which they operated.
All of the above meant they were generally slightly heavier and larger than their land based opponents.  (The Zero and Seafire are exceptions in Carrier aircraft.  The Zero was a very lightly built aircraft, but that required very large sacrifices in the area of armour protection.  The Seafire was less lightly built, but still had huge problems with its undercarriage collapsing in service.  During the Salerno Campaign when the beachead was covered solely by Carrier based Seafires, 40% of the British aircraft were out of service by the second day due to damage incurred during landings.)

The USN's aircraft did not operate under as many design handicaps as the USAAF's, but they were comparatively disadvantaged compared to the British, Soviet and Japanese.  Despite that, once again U.S. technology provided their airmen with the best carrier aircraft of WWII.

Japanese

The Japanese had two sets of requirements.  One for their Navy and one for the Army.

Navy:

Medium Range Carrier based Fighter

The Japanese requirement was the same as the U.S., that being air superiority fighters which would provide escort for Dive bombers and Torpedo planes operating under 10,000 feet, as well as CAP over the Carriers.  The Japanese chose to approach their design differently, sacrificing armour protection for performance. Ultimately this proved to be the wrong decision.  Their later model Navy fighters were not expected to operate from Carriers, so they were not under the design handicaps which the U.S. aircraft had.  They were essentially short range air superiority fighters designed to operate under 20,000 feet.  Thus they were able to get very good performance out of these designs at those altitudes.  But although they were successful at their intended role, they proved to be unable to adapt to the task of high altitude interception, with the arrival of the B-29's and Mustangs over Japan.

The Army

The Japanese Army required a medium range Air superiority fighter, designed to escort the Japanese medium tactical bombers.  The longer distances of the Pacific theater meant more fuel capacity had to be designed in.  Once again the Japanese responded by sacrificing armour protection and additionally in the case of the Oscar, firepower.  And once again this proved to be a shortsighted decision.  Although their aircraft were superbly maneuverable, they could not survive in a dense air to air enviroment.
The second generation of Japanese Army fighters were essentially designed for short range air superiority with their operating altitude being under 20,000.  With no design handicaps, they were very successful.  But once again, they proved incapable of being adapted for the high altitude interceptor role once the U.S. Strat. bombing campaign began.  The Japanese NEVER were able to seriously challenge the B-29's in the way the Germans challenged the B-17's.

Fighters are not a end in themselves.  They only exist to ensure or to prevent bombers from fulfilling their tasks.  And while the later model U.S. and German Fighters perhaps are not able to compete as well in a low level, purely fighter versus fighter situation, that is irrelvant to their intended tasks.  That the German aircraft were less successful is more a function of economics than design skill.

The best Fighter of the War?  Considering the huge design handicaps imposed by USAAF requirements, undoubtably the P-51 was the most successful in carrying out its intended task while providing superior Fighter vs Fighter performance.

Offline SOB

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10138
i like pizza.
Three Times One Minus One.  Dayum!

Offline Fishu

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3789
It's just too easy to fly these planes and spray sky full of lead without fear of jamming..

Offline danish

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 440
"The designers have accurately portrayed the aircraft as they existed. "

Wow thx.Just what I needed to know.

:=)

danish

Offline batdog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com/
Nice!!!
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline leonid

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 239
Well, buzzbait, I'd say the P-51D was the best high altitude long range escort fighter.  But the best pure fighter it was not.  Aircraft more deserving might be the Spitfire XIV, Fw190D-9, Ki-84, N1K2, Yak-3, Yak-9U, and La-7.
ingame: Raz

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Except for a few tiny minor exceptions you might have a point. But consider this.

1. The average altitude for combat in WW2 was between 20K and 30K. The average Aces High combat is around 5K. Not really representitive of actual combat. American and German A/C were notable better performers above 20K than any Russian, Itailian design. The Spitfire performance held up into altitude, but had to land shortly after arriving because of low fuel storage. The Tempest and Typhoon were reduced to a mild breeze at 25K compared to the P-51, P-38 or P-47 or any contemporary Me109 or FW190D.

2. No country in the world flew anything off of carriers even close to the F4U or F6F. End of story.

3. Cannons are overmodeled in AH. If you choose to disagree with that statement then you are saying the F4U-1C is the best fighter plane of WW2. I luv the F4U and I don't believe that.

4. The greatest equalizer of all. The fear of death. In AH there is none. In WW2 it was your first concern. Many WW2 pilots thanked God every day they flew the P-47 because it was a tank and got you home alive. There was no other plane except the Sturmovich (which is a bomber) that was as tough on the British or axis side. While the F4F, F6F and F4U all had similar reputations. It is great to scamble an La-7 from a capped field when you life isn't at stake. IRL you would take a P-47 from a rear field get to 25K and then attack. At 25K a La-7 is fish out of water.

The bottom line is the Brits, Russians and Japanese designers put an emphasis on maneuverabilty and the Americans on Speed and survivability. And everybody knows tactics and speed will always win, alla the F4 Phantom vrs Mig-17 engagements of Veitnam. Tactics * Speed = Victory  

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Ummm sorry F4UDOA, but your American centric side is stating "facts" that reality can't back up    

1. The average altitude for combat in WW2 was between 20K and 30K  

Maybe on the Western front in Europe from around 1942-1945, but that is far from "average" if you look at the entire war on all fronts. On the eastern front, combat was typically below 15k for the entire war. And in the Pacific theater combat was much lower as well.

3. Cannons are overmodeled in AH.

Highly debateable. I would bet its more the matter of icons, perfect radar ranging, high levels of pilot gunnery and combat experience, and several other variables in Aces High, rather than the fact that the cannons are overmodeled. Believe what you will, but your looking at it too narrowly.

4. The greatest equalizer of all. The fear of death

Agreed. But I see in no way how this relates to aircraft "toughness", especially when you just assume that British and Russian aircraft are fragile. How much studying have you done on Russian aircraft? The Lavochin series was considered very tough and rugged, as were most Russian aircraft (which meshes with their engineering design principals). And your trying to tell me that the Typhoon, Tempest, and the Hurricane were fragile aircraft?  Puhhhlleeaaase      And a La7 scrambled for base defense? Why would you scramble ANY fighter with the same sustained turn rates as a P-51 for defense? Oh wait... I see quite a few P-51's scrambled for base defense too. Idiots will be idiots no matter what.  So I don't think I would use that either of those points to boost your arguement F4UDOA.

The bottom line is the Brits, Russians and Japanese designers put an emphasis on maneuverabilty and the Americans on Speed and survivability.  

Oh really.... ?? Perhaps you would like to discuss the relative speeds of the Typhoon in comparison to any other American 1942 aircraft or the Tempest in 1944. Perhaps you would like to discuss the relative speeds of the Spit XIV versus the P-51D, P-38L, and the P-47D? How does the speed below 10k of any wartime American fighter compare to the La7?

Realize that I'm mostly just giving you a hard time F4UDOA,      but I'm trying to make a point of "Don't believe the hype".  Just because you grew up watching John Wayne movies, and lots of propaganda on how the P-51D Mustang "Won the War", doesn't necessarily mean its true.

Don't get me wrong.  American fighters have many strengths, and if used properly are a fearsome opponent.  But alot of the generalizations you made above are simply not true, or are being used out of context.  There is a bigger picture out there, that includes industrial strength, overwhelming numbers, resupply, reinforcements, and the tactical/strategic constraints and goals, that play a crucial role in "who wins the war".

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 03-22-2001).]

Sturm

  • Guest
First off he has a point on a few things, but one point I do disagree on is the LW AC.  The FW's never had good high alt performance "cept the TA-152" even the D-9 the performance fell off around 30K.  FW's were designed to operate under 20K there threshold of there performance was 21K.  Superior AC did not win hte war for Russia, the number of AC did though.  Even in the final months of the war the Luftwaffe was able to hold air superiority in certain areas.  262 could dogfight, and shot down 51's.  Was it a great dogfighter?  Nope but it could.  Also the IL-2 was an attack aircraft, once jettisoning its bomb load had the manueverablity of a 109 E and same speed.  Reading different sources on this plane each account reports of its handling as being far superior then one wo0uld assume.  Overall though this mapset or size the LW and US fighters are at a distinct disadvantage.      

------------------
Sturm 6 StaffelKapitän
JV44 Platzschutzstaffel
Airfield Defense Squadron

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Ahh Verm,

I think your over complicating things.

1. I have read the following autobiographies and war diaries
a. Chuck Yeagers
b. Greg Boyington
c. Saburu Sakai
d. Tommy Blackburn
e. JG26 war diaries

Amoung others

The one common thread that runs through these books is Altitude and speed. You are using the Typhoon and Tempest for examples of speed and I tell you that they sorely lacked it where they needed it. Neither of those two A/C could compare to any of the American three in performance at 25K or higher. They were use primarily for point defense and lost much of there effectiveness above 20K. And weather in AH or IRL the A/C with an altitude advantage has the advantage in the fight 100% of the time. You might not be able to fight a Jug against a Tempest at 5K but at 25K I'll take the Jug every time.

2. Average alt of combat. On Gaudacanal where both sides A/C had there best performance at 10K or lower, Joe Foss and company routinely climb there F4F Wildcats to 30K waiting for the Zero's and Betty's at 20K to 25K. Yeager and Bud Anderson have written about there engagements at 30K being routine. But the most compelling arguement for 20K and higher being the desiding factor in fighter technogy is the critical alt of any A/C engine, and why it is designed that way. Is the USAF and USN it was centered around the height of the Bombers the escorted. The USN F6F and F4U were 20K and the AAF was between 25K to 30K. That's why it was called the critical altitude. Sure combat took place at lower alts. once the fight had started. But initial engagements start high and end low.

3. Are cannons overmodeled in AH? Verm, you can't be serious? Just look at the eny values assigned to different A/C. Is the F4U-1C the best A/C of WW2? according to AH it is. Why does the F4U-1C have an eny value of 10 while the La-7 has a value of 20 and the La-5 has a value of 30!! Is the F4U performance 3 times better than the La-5? Remember, all pilots have radar icons, and auto ranging in ah. Not just the cannon birds.

4. I am not calling the Soviet or British A/C fragile. I am saying that the durabilty of American A/C gave it's pilots confidence above and beyond what any pilot of a Spifire or Hurricane could have felt. My knowledge of Soviet A/C is limited however by sheer size alone I do not imagine that they would have been comparable to the P-47 in durabilty. In other words a 20mill whole in the wing of an A/C with 300sq ft of wing is not as bad as a whole in a wing with 200sq ft of surface.  

Believe me I am not reading from the propaganda factory. I am just simplifying history. The Russians, Brits and Germans fought a tactical war. The American fought a strategic war. If America did not influence A/C design for the time they would probably still be fighting over there.

BTW, you asked me to compare the speed of the Typhoon vrs any 1942 American fighter A/C? Well the P-47 could have caught anything on the deck when diving from 25K    

Also as good as the La7/5 and Yak9U/T in senario vrs American A/C P-47, P-51 and P-38 the American side would win in AH becuase it would never be necessary to go below 20K to fight.

Name one Euro-fighter that could be used for strategic offensive missions? The Zero was the best offensive fighter made by the Soviets, British or Axis country during the war. No other country except for the US. put out anything other than a short rage fighter with limited tactical use.

And no, the BF110 doesn't coun't.  

Offline Sable

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 265
Just as a side note, I don't think it's really fair to consider the British and the US as seperate entities given the amount of weaponry and information that the two shared.  US pilots flew spitfires, and often used British flight equipment.  FAA flew Wildcats, Hellcats, and Corsairs, and the RAF made use of the Mustang.

Also, one should note that the US' late war monsters saw little to no combat due to the fact that they were an ocean away from the action, and they weren't needed.  Imagine  F4U-4s, F8Fs, F7Fs, P-47M/Ns, P-51Hs flying around.  I don't think too many VVS/LW/IJN/RAF fans would be happy about that.  

Sable
352nd FG

Offline Vermillion

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4012
Sable wrote:
 
Quote
Imagine F4U-4s, F8Fs, F7Fs, P-47M/Ns, P-51Hs flying around. I don't think too many VVS/LW/IJN/RAF fans would be happy about that

Why is that? At least in regards to the Soviet fighters, the equivalent to the La7 and the Yak-9U, in terms of numbers and combat time, for the US would be the P-51D and the P-47D-25& -30.

Once more... what we have for the VVS is NOT the period equivalent to the F4U-4, F8F, or the P-51H. Jeez why does everyone think the VVS planes are some low time low production crap.

F4UDOA, your having problems distinguishing between the game and reality   . Remember that in reality you don't have icons, and the color depth/shadows/clouds make it much more difficult to spot enemy aircraft. So tool around all you want at 30k on the eastern front, all you will do is burn gas.  

All I'm saying is that your looking at it all too narrowly, from a total western point of view. For example, remember the "dog" of the USAAF, the P-39? The Soviets did a whole lot with it.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
I'd like to make a point if I might. One way to make sure that the combat takes place at high altitude is to utilize more heavy bombers. An indisputable rule of air fighting says that "the air war is fought where the bombers fly." Using B-17s bombing from 25-28,000 ft. forces the defenders to come on up to that altitude if they want to intercept. If they are foolish enough to select one of the low altitude fighters, they will be 'meat on the table' for the Thunderbolts and Mustangs. Remember, to defend the bombers, you need only attack drive the enemy away. Better yet, send in a diversionary attack at 10,000 feet, which should entice the defenders to select the low altitude fighters. Then, perhaps 30 minutes behind, bring in the heavies. Odds are that the heavies will be unmolested, and if they do try and come up, it's a field day for the Thunderbolts.

As to no fear of death: Well, there's not much to fear at all. Moreover, there is not much realism to be experienced either. Here's my solution: Prior to beginning play,
drink two liters of fluid, then strip down to you underwear and step into an ice-cold shower. Open all the windows or turn the air conditioning to its coldest setting. Now, position a fan so that it blows that cold air on you as you sit soaking wet. Put on a pair of thick, heavy mittens. Set your volume so loud that it hurts your ears.

At this point, you need HTC to write a line of code that will automatically re-format your hard drive if you should be killed during the game.

So, here you are; a full bladder, freezing your bellybutton blue, nearly deaf from the racket, struggling to operate systems with the heavy mittens and scared toejamless that you'll die.

Now we have an accurate simulation!

My regards,

Widewing


[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-22-2001).]
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
 
Quote
I would bet its more the matter of icons, perfect radar ranging, high levels of pilot gunnery and combat experience, and several other variables in Aces High

you forgot to mention the most important factor: lag
When the enemy aims at you where you´ve been 1-2 sec ago, and you try to escape his attack but you can only react to his move where he was on his FE 1-2 sec ago, too, well... tracer fall 400yrads behind you, you think 'hehe missed me' and suddenly BANG BANG BANG... not funny  

niklas

Offline F4UDOA

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1731
      • http://mywebpages.comcast.net/markw4/index.html
Widewing,

Exactly!! Your great at saying what I'm thinking. One day I'll learn to read and write too  

Anyway the point that I wanted to make was that the altitude of the combat is directed by the altitude of the bombers. That's what I mean by the critical alt of the engines in the fighters. It is no mistake it matches the operating alt of the heavies. They were designed that way for a reason. The Russians built fast fighters at low alt for two reasons. They had low alt Bombers and they didn't have the supercharging or turbocharging technology to fly higher. Any country can put a big engine in a small plane and go fast. But building a long range high alt escort fighter for strategic offensive bombing is hard. Just look at what happened to the Germans at the BoB. If the Germans had Zero's the war might have been different.

Just picture 1945 and the war ends with Germany and begins with the Soviet Union. There would be no Mig15, that was captured German technology. Imagine hoards of B-17 and B-29's flying over Moscow at 25K to 30K. What was going to come up and stop them?