Why British, Soviet and Japanese aircraft are better than U.S. and German in AH.

[Nashwan]

 

Also, one should note that the US' late war monsters saw little to no combat due to the fact that they were an ocean away from the action, and they weren't needed. Imagine F4U-4s, F8Fs, F7Fs, P-47M/Ns, P-51Hs flying around. I don't think too many VVS/LW/IJN/RAF fans would be happy about that.

Sable

I'd be more than happy if the equivalent RAF aircraft were included. Spitfire XVIIIs and 21s, (hell even the Spit XIV would be nice), Tempest II, Meteor III, Mosquito B XVI and Nf30.

[Tac]

Exactly the problem in AH widewing. We dont have big formations of buffs going into enemy territory, so HT painted a red and yellow "S" in a diamond logo in their chests and sent them out. These Superbuffs and their turbolaser can happily fly at 10k and have a good chance making it to target (nobody cares about living, since bombs are gone, they got their perkies... and hell, theres lots of fighters around to singlepingkill. why go home?).

"Imagine hoards of B-17 and B-29's flying over Moscow at 25K to 30K. What was going to come up and stop them? "

Use the Napoleonic Defense: Wait for Winter and then catch them  


IMO, you should only get perks if you land or ditch your plane in friendly territory. Getting captured, dying, ditching in enemy land should give you no perks. Maybe then people might fly to live instead of banzai flights.

On subject of this thread: Isnt it amazing each nation in the conflict made planes so specialized in their roles... yet none of them have a counterpart in the other nations? Its almost poetic.  

[Karnak]

 

Originally posted by F4UDOA:
1. The average altitude for combat in WW2 was between 20K and 30K. The average Aces High combat is around 5K. Not really representitive of actual combat. American and German A/C were notable better performers above 20K than any Russian, Itailian design. The Spitfire performance held up into altitude, but had to land shortly after arriving because of low fuel storage. The Tempest and Typhoon were reduced to a mild breeze at 25K compared to the P-51, P-38 or P-47 or any contemporary Me109 or FW190D.

Um, you're wrong.

The Spitfire, particularly late war Spits had better range than their German counterparts.  Believe me you, a Spitfire MkXIV does not have to immediately descend to land after climbing for 9 minutes up to its best altitude of 27,000ft.  With droptanks a Spit XIV would have more than two hours of fuel after reaching 27,000ft.

All of the big 5 produced some excellent fighters.

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[hazed-]

bah LW planes look meaner  

RAF planes sound nicer  

russian planes are tough little ugly things  

USAAF are dull  


mwahahah

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Hazed
3./JG2

[Tac]

WHAT? You saying my P-38 looks dull?

All the rest of US planes I agree (well, P-39 has some nice lines though!). But P-38? Sir, I feel insulted    

[leonid]

 

Also as good as the La7/5 and Yak9U/T in senario vrs American A/C P-47, P-51 and P-38 the American side would win in AH becuase it would never be necessary to go below 20K to fight.
- F4UDOA

Well, in a pure dogfighting situation this may be true.  But, what if a group of Shturmoviks were laying waste a US armored column?  That would require a response from the USAAF, which would result in air combat at low altitude with the likes of La7s, Yak-9Us, and Yak-3s.

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leonid, Kompol
5 GvIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by leonid:
Well, in a pure dogfighting situation this may be true.  But, what if a group of Shturmoviks were laying waste a US armored column?  That would require a response from the USAAF, which would result in air combat at low altitude with the likes of La7s, Yak-9Us, and Yak-3s.

Your assuming that the Il-2s could even get to the battleline. Which, I doubt they could. Remember the problem the Luftwaffe had with Mustangs setting up CAPs over German airfields? Guess what? It will happen again. Another factor not generally known was that the Soviets received 70% of the aviation fuel from the west. Gee, how long do you think they are going to fly once the fuel got cut off. In fact, on May 9, 1945 the fuel was cut off and the Soviets found themselves with only a 20 day supply for full operations. IIRC, 27 tankers were inroute to Soviet ports when the war ended. They were recalled immediately. The other problem facing the Soviets was that the Americans and Brits were flying much better fighters than the Germans were generally operating on the eastern front, flown by better trained, highly aggressive pilots. If you understand that 200 German fighters beat the snot out of the VVS on a daily basis, picture what 8,000 American and British fighters would do. We have wargamed this several times, and the results were always the same. The VVS gets clobbered in short order. They would never hold air superiority over the battlefield, largely because they would be pounded around the clock on their own fields. The problem was that the Soviet Air Force was a tactical air force, and utterly unprepared to deal with a strategic air force that could reach out to attack the them day and night from altitudes that the Soviet aircraft could barely reach, much less fight at. Of course, the Soviets were well aware of this and by 1950 had rectified this to a substantial degree. They recognized that the threat had changed and moved swiftly to counter that threat. However, in the early summer of 1945, the VVS was nearly helpless to deal with thousands of high altitude bombers and fighters operated by the U.S. and Britain.

My regards,

Widewing




[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-23-2001).]

[leonid]

widewing,

When did the Soviets import 70% of their aviation fuel?  The Soviets weren't receiving any lend lease of worth until 1943.  And what wargame are you talking about that simulated a possible confrontation between the USAAF and VVS?  Unfortunately, you assume too much, like VVS airfields would be easy to locate.  Germans found out how difficult it was to determine fake airfields from the real ones.  It seems you are not aware of the level of skill that the Soviets possessed at operational deception.  They got very good at convincing the Germans that they were at point 'A', then show up in force at point 'B'.

And who do you think the Soviets had been fighting with for four years?  The Luftwaffe, the most skilled group of pilots in WWII.  And for about half of those years the Soviets had to deal with overwhelming German air superiority.  The VVS was very adept at dealing with adverse combat conditions.  I'm quite confident that the resultant tactical effect the VVS would've had on a US attack of Russia would've drawn USAAF fighter resources into a tactical role, which in turn might have depleted escort cover for bombers.

One last thing.  The Soviets built their planes to meet specific criteria.  If a US attack upon Russia was ever seriously attempted, the Soviets would've immediately begun design on high altitude fighters.


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leonid, Kompol
5 GvIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."

[Bombjack]

...which brings us back to the original point. All participants had a certain bias in terms of design philosophy. If they were forced to change the way they fought they would have changed what they built.

[This message has been edited by Bombjack (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Animal]

I like nachos

[juzz]

But baked beans are better for gaining "air superiority"! (see Blazing Saddles for clarification)  

[Widewing]

 

Originally posted by Bombjack:
...which brings us back to the original point. All participants had a certain bias in terms of design philosophy. If they were forced to change the way they fought they would have changed what they built.

[This message has been edited by Bombjack (edited 03-23-2001).]

Yes, they would have. However, it would take at least a year to get new designs in service. That's assuming they are not having the aircraft plants flattened during the process.

My regards,

Widewing

[batdog]

 Yea but what if Uncle Adolf and his freak show henchman would of had some HEAVY water.... and a v2? What Goring hadn't of been such a ninny. What if the Germans would of continued to hit Brit airfields and not cities... what if Sea Lion had gone ahead  and a beach head had been formed in England. What if the Japanese had pressed on and taken. Harbor? Hehehe....  

batdog



[This message has been edited by batdog (edited 03-23-2001).]

[StormFB]

Hello everyone!  

Nice topic and I've got some things to say  

As it was said Soviets didn't operate hi alt fighters in large numbers. But did they exist? Look at 1940: I-185 was being tested (didn't go due to Stalins paranoya), Mig 1 and 3 ready to go to the production line. Not gonna say anything about other designs of hi alt fighters (there were a lot of em). What was I-185? 4x20+680km/h+21sec turn time. Best speed at 8 km. What was Mig3? The fastest fighter that saw combat in 1941 (650km/h at 6km) Who said Soviets didn't have superchargers?   Btw look at Pe8 (4 eng buff that took raids to Berlin in 1941) - what a supecharger did it have!  
Germans flew their 109's low in early days of war cause they didn't have a plane to fight Mig at high, btw pretty smart move  

As to a year that Soviets needed to produce a hi alt fighter then you prolly don't know about Yak history (the most obvious example) Take Yak9. It's M105P eng could be easily replaced with M106 (this work was made in 1942 and 1943 to intercept high flying german recon. Btw along with Yak9(M106) there were a number of spit9 that scrambled the same time but didn't reach that Ju. Yak9 reached 12500m and intercepted the enemy) Btw this was done to an ordinary Yak9 taken from the front.

It would take tonns of time to describe what was in store of soviet aircraft industry in 1944,1945. Just the highlites: bunch of new eng VK107,VK108,AM41 ets. with good hi alt performance; bunch of new aircrafts based on the prooven designs (La, Yak and Mig construction beuros had fighters that used prop and jet power together reaching speeds around 850km/h) and a heck of other cool prop designs that didn't go due to jet aera. And lots of other interstings things to talk  
One more thing: noone could match USSR in producing new planes, designs without stoping the production line and in surprisingly short time periods.

Ready to discuss!  

Let's kick the tires and light the fires!
Best wishes
Storm

[This message has been edited by StormFB (edited 03-23-2001).]

[leonid]

• Distance from London to Berlin = ~570 miles.
• Distance from Berlin to Ural Mountains = ~1700 miles.

Range for a B-17 was around 1,100 miles.  Thus, Soviet heavy industry would've been untouched by any US attack on the Soviet Union.

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leonid, Kompol
5 GvIAP VVS-KA, Knights

"Our cause is just.  The enemy will be crushed.  Victory will be ours."