Author Topic: Why British, Soviet and Japanese aircraft are better than U.S. and German in AH.  (Read 2285 times)

Offline -aper-

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Yes, they would have. However, it would take at least a year to get new designs in service. That's assuming they are not having the aircraft plants flattened during the process.

Widewing

You may know that most of Russians aircraft factories were evacuated from western territories of Russia to Ural (Siberia) in the end of 1941. Nevertheless in 1942 the production of aircrafts increased drastically.

You may also know that in 1944 the production of Me-109s and Fw-190s reached amazing numbers per month (as well as new Jets were put into mass production) and it was the time when Allied bombers were extremely succesfull in flattening German cities.



Offline Buzzbait

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German fighter production reached  record numbers in the second half of 1944...  Yes.  Too bad 90% of the experienced pilots were dead.  By that time there were a few 'Experten' and a mass of green cannon fodder.  When and by whom were the core of the experienced pilots killed?  November '43 to July '44.  By the 8th A.F.  I will get the figures for German fighter losses broken down by front and post them on this board in the next week or two if anyone is interested to read them.

Offline Widewing

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Originally posted by -aper-:
Widewing

You may know that most of Russians aircraft factories were evacuated from western territories of Russia to Ural (Siberia) in the end of 1941. Nevertheless in 1942 the production of aircrafts increased drastically.

As was mentioned in other posts, the range to the Soviet fighter plants was substantially greater. Indeed, this did exceed the range of the B-17 with effective bomb loads (please remember that the B-17 was not originally designed to be a heavy bomber, but more of a long range medium bomber). However, the B-24 could range out considerably further, with a greater bomb load (1,200 - 1,500 miles combat radius with 5,000 lbs of bombs). The major threat to the Soviets would have been the Lancaster and the superlative B-29. From Bases in China, India, Europe and the Middle East, these heavy bombers could reach any location within the Soviet Union. I should also point out that the B-32 Dominator would have continued in production, replacing the B-24.

I should also mention that the best years of Soviet aircraft production were those in which Lend-Lease material were being delivered. Nonetheless, American aircraft production capacity was nearly 3 times that of the USSR, excluding British capability, which was about 80% of the Soviets maximum. This includes heavy bombers, which the Soviets were not building. As you must realize, the Heavy bombers consume 6 to 8 times more manhours and material than fighters. So, it is obvious that U.S. industry could produce a great many more aircraft than the Soviets, who would not longer be supplemented by western aircraft.

Someone else asked questions how much avgas was being imported via Lend-Lease. I will have to dig out my materials on this to be specific, and will post that data here shortly. But, rest assured that the total of all equipment and material supplied to the USSR during the war remarkable. IIRC, this total was nearly three times greater than that produced by Japan between 1939 and 1945. However, we can look to Marshall
Zhukov for insight to the value of American Lend-Lease to the Soviet Union's survival.

Quoting Zhukov:
"Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one’s reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American ‘Studebekkers’ [sic] (trucks), we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided our front transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries."

Moreover, Zhukov underscored that "we entered war while still continuing to be a backward country in an industrial sense in comparison with Germany. Simonov’s truthful recounting of these meetings with Zhukov, which took place in 1965 and 1966, are corraborated by the utterances of G. Zhukov, recorded as a result of eavesdropping by security organizations beginning in 1963:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have formed our reserves and **could not have continued the war ** .  we had no explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet steel did they give us... We really could not have quickly put right our production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."

 
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You may also know that in 1944 the production of Me-109s and Fw-190s reached amazing numbers per month (as well as new Jets were put into mass production) and it was the time when Allied bombers were extremely succesfull in flattening German cities.

I would not call German production amazing at all. It was still only a fraction of the total being produced in the U.S. during that time. Moreover, we know that the quality of later war German aircraft was far below the standard of pre-1943 aircraft. This is because quality control fell off rapidly under the stress of bombing and the decentralizing of the production facilities. Besides, it takes but a few days to produce an aircraft, but it takes months to produce a pilot. Likewise, it takes 18 years for a man to mature to military age. It takes several more months to train him. In contrast, it takes but 5 seconds to manufacture the bullet that kills him. Indeed, survivability is the greatest asset. Maintaining your trained and skilled manpower was the one of the most important aspects of waging war in the mid 20th century.

One other point that is indicative of U.S. manufacturing capacity. During the war, the U.S. manufactured over 9,000 surface ships exceeding a displacement of 1,500 tons. The USSR produced less than 110. The Soviets depended upon others navys and ships to deliver the Lend-Lease material. They concentrated their efforts on tanks and artillery. Remarkably, the U.S. produced more tanks in 1942 and 1943 than the USSR did. In fact, entire Soviet Tank Brigades were equipped with American M-4s. Where the Soviets really impress is in the number of artillery tubes produced. Typically, the USSR produced twice as many as both the U.S. and Britain combined. It is facinating to study the weapons manufactured, as it enables one to better understand the type of war each nation believed that it needed, or was required to fight.

My regards,

Widewing


[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-24-2001).]
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline leonid

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Well, when I said there were better pure fighters than the P-51D I didn't expect to be drawn into a strategical assessment of said fighters.  But now that we're talking strategy such a discussion must encompass more than merely airpower, because wars are decided by possession of real estate, requiring ground units.  Below is a post from another forum that I've pasted here, and it concerns a British feasibility study that was prepared by order of Churchill right after the war.  The object of this study was to explore the possibility of a suprise attack on the Soviet Union by western Allied forces.  It was called 'Operation Unthinkable'...


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Searched the soc.history.war.world-war-ii newsgroup and came up with the following interesting post by Stuart Wilkes.

On 1 October 1998, the British newspaper The Telegraph published an account of "Operation Unthinkable", which was a study ordered by British Prime Minister Churchill to investigate the possibilities in a sneak attack on the Soviet Army. The plan was to rearm up to 10 German divisions, and attack the Soviet forces in Germany with the combined US, British, and German armies. It was presented to him on May 22, 1945. Following is The telegraph's discription of the fate of this plan.

"Our numerical inferiority on land renders it extremely doubtful whether we could achieve a limited and quick success, even if the political appreciation considered that this would suffice to gain our political object." Churchill asked Lt Gen Ismay to pass the Unthinkable reporton to the Chiefs of Staff committee (COS), composed of the most senior military officers; Gen Sir Alan Brooke, Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Admiral of the Fleet Sir David Cunningham, the First Sea Lord, and Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal, the Chief of the Air Staff. They replied on June 8, dismissing the report's idea that offensive action against the Russians could be taken,instead suggesting that Britain should be thinking of defence. In the month since VE Day, the Americans had begun to demobilise at a rate which alarmed the COS. It laid the bare facts before Churchill: the Russians had 264 divisions in Europe, including 36 armoured divisions, compared with 103 Allied divisions, 23 of which were armoured. America retained 64 divisions in Europe. The Soviet air force outnumbered the Allies by 11,802 in fighters and fighter-bombers, although American, British and Polish heavy bombers had a superiority of almost three to one. The COS concluded: "It is clear from the relative strength of the respective land forces that we are not in a position to take the offensive with a view to achieving a rapid success."

"Since, however, Russian and allied land forces are in contact from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, we are bound to become involved in land operations. In support of our land forces we should have technically superior, but numerically inferior, tactical air forces."

"As regards Strategic Air Forces, our superiority in numbers and technique would be to some extent discounted by the absence of strategical targets compared to those which existed in Germany, and the necessity for using these strategic air forces to supplement our tactical air forces in support of land operations."

"Our view is, therefore, that once hostilities began, it would be beyond our power to win a quick but limited success and we should becommitted to a protracted war against heavy odds."

"These odds, moreover, would become fanciful if the Americans grew weary and indifferent and began to be drawn away by the magnet of the Pacific War."

As can be seen, the British Chiefs of Staff saw little prospect for success in the notion of a sneak attack on the Soviet Army.

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Offline -aper-

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I would not call German production amazing at all. It was still only a fraction of the total being produced in the U.S. during that time.

No they are amazing. How the industry of Gemany that was 'disorganized' managed to increase greatly the production of aircrafts and other kinds of weapons in 1944?

And yes, the war was very hard to Russia. Especially in 1941-42. And all the help was very appreciated. (even if Russia was needed to pay in gold for this help). But do you really think that Russia could not survive without this help? The help from Britain btw in 1941-42 was more important even it was quite limited because it  came in time. And the American Lend-Liza started in 1943 after the break point in war (Stalingrad) was overcome.




[This message has been edited by -aper- (edited 03-24-2001).]

Offline Widewing

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Originally posted by -aper-:
 No they are amazing. How the industry of Gemany that was 'disorganized' managed to increase greatly the production of aircrafts and other kinds of weapons in 1944?

Albert Speer did not believe that German industry had been disorganized by bombing. He believed that it was over-organized to the point of inhibiting production. Are you aware that it took until the spring of 1944 before Speer was able to begin real mass production of aircraft and tanks? Indeed it took years to convince Hitler to shift to a war-time economy.

 
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And yes, the war was very hard to Russia. Especially in 1941-42. And all the help was very appreciated. (even if Russia was needed to pay in gold for this help). But do you really think that Russia could not survive without this help? The help from Britain btw in 1941-42 was more important even it was quite limited because it  came in time. And the American Lend-Liza started in 1943 after the break point in war (Stalingrad) was overcome.

What do you think the Brits were sending Russia in 1941 and 1942? Largely, the material was American made. Those P-40s that arrived were not built by the British. Those trucks, the raw materials needed for explosives and steel production were not generally British produced. Britain was the broker, but to a significant extent, America was the manufacturer. The Soviets knew where this material came from. See Zhukov's remarks quoted in a previous post.

There is no doubt that Russia suffered more than any other nation (with the possible exception of Poland) at the hands of Germany. People with any sense at all will understand that the sacrifice of the Russians beating back the Nazi armies ultimately saved countless hundreds of thousands of casualties that would have been required for the U.S. and British to defeat Germany by themselves. I would hope that the American people were (and are) grateful for this, and the fact that their fathers and grandfathers were spared as a direct result of Russia fighting the bulk of the land war. I know that I am. My father was assigned to the 78th Infantry Division. What are the chances that he might not have survived the war had we been forced to fight the entire Werhmacht in western Europe? In fairness, I believe many forget that the U.S. was fighting a major war against Japan that involved a considerable percentage of military resources. Likewise, a significant portion of Commonwealth resources were involved as well.

I would also add that Stalingrad by itself was not a war winning turning point. It took Kursk to establish that the outcome was cast. Had the Soviets been defeated at Kursk (and it was a very close run thing), momentum would have switched back to Germany.

My regards,

Widewing

[This message has been edited by Widewing (edited 03-24-2001).]
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline SageFIN

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Gotta love the smell of patriotism in the morning.

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Offline -aper-

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What do you think the Brits were sending Russia in 1941 and 1942? Largely, the material was American made. Those P-40s that arrived were not built by the British. Those trucks, the raw materials needed for explosives and steel production were not generally British produced.

May be the couple of British infantry tanks could be considered as a row materials for steel production. But actually only Hurricanes were delivered to Russia in significant numbers up to 1943. P40s were delivered in very small numbers in 1941-42 as well as trucks an some other equipment.


 
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I would also add that Stalingrad by itself was not a war winning turning point. It took Kursk to establish that the outcome was cast. Had the Soviets been defeated at Kursk (and it was a very close run thing), momentum would have switched back to Germany.

The point is that Russian army could not be defeated in battle of Kursk. The plans of German offence were well known the defence was well prepared and the reserves of Russian army were huge. Yes it was a great battle and both sides got heavy loses. The German army did it best but wasted too many of rather small reserves and lost the initiative totally.
 

[This message has been edited by -aper- (edited 03-24-2001).]

Sorrow[S=A]

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Buzzbait- I would LOVE to see those numbers. And especially where they came from. Black Cross Red Star had some nice little statistics as well. There was absolutly no way you could state the Mighty 8th killed off the majority of the Luftwaffe during the Dolittle strategy change. For one thing the forces going against the 8th were never more than a pittance the Luftwaffe command could spare from the Eastern front. And for another- by the time the eighth got to hunt down the germans freely there only consisted of two types of pilots in the Luftwaffe- those with enormous experience and training- and those with almost none. And it was the sacrifices of the Eastern front over 3 years that made it so. And to top it all off- pilots transferred to the western front in '44 usually continued their records- the reverse usually left high scoring aces on the western front dead in weeks fighting the Soviets.

Offline J_A_B

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Just got around to noticing this thread...

"Why British, Soviet and Japanese aircraft are better than U.S. and German in AH"

They are?   I thought the P-51 and FW-190D were the two best fighters    

All a matter of opinion, and we all have a different one--which is what makes these BB's so great!


J_A_B

avin

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Widewing wrote:
Another factor not generally known was that the Soviets received 70% of the aviation fuel from the west. Gee, how long do you think they are going to fly once the fuel got cut off.

I'd like a reliable source for this statement, Widewing. It's certainly news to me.

avin

Offline pzvg

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aper if you actually think Kursk was not a close fought battle with the issue in serious doubt on several occasions, then you neither read German or Russian accounts of the battle, where do you get your info?
As for the few Itanks Britain sent, The Russians did not like them at all, mobility was too low for their doctrine and cold weather reliability was non-exsistant.
And to take up one of Widewing's comments to task, so to speak, Why in the world would you need to escort bombers in the MA? hell, I've lost count of the times 5-6 guys would be flat out on the deck after a single fleeing fighter, while a buff coming in at 10-15K flew right past them, all because it doesn't matter to them until they RTB and find they have no fuel. Can't imagine real life fighter pilots allowing an enemy bomber to proceed unmolested like that. would have made a real poor showing for the RAF in BoB now wouldn't it?  

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Offline Nashwan

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As for the few Itanks Britain sent, The Russians did not like them at all, mobility was too low for their doctrine and cold weather reliability was non-exsistant
The "few" tanks included over 3700 Valentines, some from Canada, over a thousand Matilda IIs and around 300 Churchills. Perhaps you left out thousand after few?
The Russians liked the Valentine. They used them as light tanks, and asked that the production lines be kept open when Britain wanted to switch to prodcing better tanks.
The Matildas were sent early enough that some of them participated in the battle for Moscow in the winter of 41.
Britain also sent over 4500 Spits and Hurricane, again many in 1941 when the Russians most needed it.

Offline Widewing

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Originally posted by avin:
I'd like a reliable source for this statement, Widewing. It's certainly news to me.

avin

See Professor Richard Overy's book, Russia's War. Published in 1998, Overy was granted access to much of the Russian's WWII records.
Did you know that more than 90% of all railroad stock, locomotives and rails used by the USSR were made in the USA? You may also wish to read Overy's Why the Allies Won.

My regards,

Widewing

My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline -aper-

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pzvg

As I pointed out Kursk was great battle especially by number of tanks and aircrafts been involved in it. But the turn point in the war was Stalingrad because after the Stalingrad's catastrophe German army never was successful in strategic operation on Eastern front.

Nashwan

About 3000 of Hurricanes were sent to Russia in 1941-42. The first planes appeared to be unoperational in the terrible winter conditions of 1941-42. The oil radiators got broken under freeze and MGs worked very unreliable. The lack of spare wooden propellers was also big trouble. In spring of 1942 all the Hurricanes (old and newcoming) were sent to the special factory in Podlipky where they were reequiped and rearmed (2x20mm Shvak + 2x12,7mm UB) and the other factory started the production of wooden propellers for Hurricanes. So only in summer of 1942 the Hurricane squads became really operational.
Unfortunatelly they were totally outclassed at that time.