Author Topic: Why British, Soviet and Japanese aircraft are better than U.S. and German in AH.  (Read 2300 times)

Offline Toad

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Note: Vast oversimplification follows  :

Crimea 1854-1856: Tsarist forces move into Ottoman Turkish territory. British & French help Turks engage and quickly drive Russians back out of disputed territory. Probably should have quit right there, but tried to take Sevastopol. Russians lose a close one at Balaclava, get pushed back again at Inkerman. After a lot of sickness (cholera), inept supply and stupidity, Sevastopol falls to British/French/Turks and war is ended by the Treaty of Paris.

That about what you were looking for?

Vast oversimplification of The 1918 Russian Intervention follows  :

Allied war supplies were stored both at Murmansk and Archangel. An Allied representative who saw the supplies wrote that there were "acres on acres of barbed wire, stands of small arms, cases of ammunition and pyramids of shells of all calibres; great parks of artillery, motor trucks, field kitchens, ambulances--thousands of them; railroad iron, wheels, axles, rails, coils of precious copper telegraph wire; most important of all, the regularly piled, interminable rows of metal pig--the alloys so essential for artillery production--and the sinister looking sheds where the T.N.T. was stored."

The Allies thought the Bolsheviks might be working with the Germans (Remember that Lenin was sent back to Russia on a German train), and so were afraid of the possibility that the supplies would fall into German hands.

Meanwhile, there was a lack of food in North Russia. Two British food ships were sent to Archangel trade food for the Allied war materials, but that was refused. Later the contents of one of the food ships was traded for the release of foreign nationals who were trying to leave Russia by ship from Archangel.

The British and the French were pressing the U.S. to send three U.S. battalions to North Russia. In a memorandum on July 17, 1918, President Wilson yielded to these requests "in the matter of establishing a small force at Murmansk, to guard the military stores at Kola, and to make it safe for Russian forces to come together in organized bodies in the north."

Wilson went on to say that these U.S. military units were not to take part in an organized intervention in the Murmansk or Archangel areas, and that he would withdraw them from Russia and send them to France if offensive use of the Americans troops came to pass.

President Wilson thought he was sending the 339th Infantry to guard supplies at Murmansk, but the British had a different Russian strategy.

To make a long story short, a small multinational force at the end of a very long supply line, operating for the dubious purpose of trying to influence the Russian Civil War... eventually withdrew.

The US troops got a new American commander who arrived at Archangel in April 1919 with orders to withdraw.  As soon as navigation opened in June, the American forces left northern Russia.

British troops withdrew a few months later, but the anti-Bolshevik government they left behind held the city until February 1920.

American forces numbered about 5000; between Sept 1918 and May 1919 many minor operations
against the Bolshevist forces took place, resulting in more than 500 American casualties.

BTW, Allied forces also intervened in Siberia about the same time and with about the same result.

With the withdrawal of Russia from the war against Germany, the 40,000 strong Czech Legion, which had been fighting with the Russians against the Germans, began a slow retreat eastward, through the Ukraine, and then into Siberia. The allies had decided to remove the Czechs from the port of Vladivostok and transport them around the world to the western front in France, but on their way across Siberia on the Trans-Siberian railroad, conflicts developed between them and the Bolshevik officials along the route, which by May had become open warfare.

Another multinational force, including 70,000 Japanese, 829 British, 1,400 Italian, and 107 Ammahese troops under French command were in Siberia. Canada sent troops both on the task force to northern Russia and to Siberia.

About 8,5,00 men, primarily from the US 8th Infantry Division were deployed. There were several encounters with armed partisans that resulted in the death of 36 Americans.

So the "Russian Intervention" involved two diffent sets of US troops working with other multinational forces. All did relatively little fighting and casualties were relatively light. Nothing much was accomplished.

Do I get a passing grade in history now, Professor Storm?

...and no, I don't think Lend-Lease won the war.

Do you think Russia didn't need it at all?

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -lynx-

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Thank you Toad for the links - very interesting reading. I don't think anyone is saying that LL was not needed. Some people just go somewhat overboard pushing it's contribution to the outcome of the war.

Pointing the finger to the value of the supplies and not showing the value of Russia's own contribution to the war effort leaves a one-sided picture IMHO. To keep to the aviation theme I'll give you just one example: ~19,000 planes of all makes were sent to Russia under LL while Il-2s alone production run was in excess of 44,000 with a total of ~140,000 planes of all types supplied to VVS by Soviet aviation industry during the war.

 
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A good page. Has the later (1945) Soviet denunciation and rejection of the neutrality treaty (one year before the pact expired (Image removed from quote.) ) and declaration of war against Japan as well.
This looks like you're not entirely approve of Russia's sticking to the treaties with your good selves and England about declaring war on Japan - your enemy at the time.

It's been discussed here before. Had someone on your side bothered to tell the Russians that you had the bomb and were planning on winding up the Pacific campaign before tea tomorrow at the latest they wouldn't have bothered shipping hundreds of thousands of troops with all the tanks, guns and other related crap 6,000 miles across the continent. You were fighting the war in the Far East. They promised to help and stuck to their word, facing ~1,000,000-strong Japaneese army btw. Would you agree that winking at their efforts was a tad disrespectful?

 
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So, in a way you could say the USA paid $696.89 for every Soviet soldier that gave their life trying to stop Hitler.
Leonid - it wasn't an investment, Russia paid for everything in gold as far as I know. This payment included over thousand Cobras and Kingcobras (and other supplies) lost with merchant ships in the North Atlantic to the U-boats.

 
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In case you hadn't noticed, the Soviet Navy of the time wasn't up to stopping the US from arriving off it's shores, as for the "impenetrable" vastness of the Eastern USSR, that's hardly the problem it seems to an army that got there over 9,000 miles of ocean.
/sarcasm mode off/pzvg - if you can't see the difference between moving troops through virgin forests with no roads and shipping them 9,000 (???) miles by sea - I can't help you. BTW, last time I looked Alaska was less than 50 miles from Russia, Japan (where the US fleet I presume would come from) - couple of hundred miles... I try to stick to facts - if you know where I was factually incorrect - let me know, I will apologise and learn for the future.

Regards  



Offline kreighund

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Originally posted by leonid:
  • Distance from London to Berlin = ~570 miles.
  • Distance from Berlin to Ural Mountains = ~1700 miles.
Range for a B-17 was around 1,100 miles.  Thus, Soviet heavy industry would've been untouched by any US attack on the Soviet Union.

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Offline leonid

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Leonid - it wasn't an investment, Russia paid for everything in gold as far as I know. This payment included over thousand Cobras and Kingcobras (and other supplies) lost with merchant ships in the North Atlantic to the U-boats.
lynx

No, I know, lynx.  I don't really think any life is worth something so base as money.  That was written with heavy sarcasm.
ingame: Raz

Offline Toad

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Lynx,

This is getting to be a bit of a circular argument.

I am most certainly not impugning the courage or tenacity of the "troops", the Soviet Armed Forces in WW2. They fought long, hard and well and suffered huge losses.

For some to bring up those losses as a mercenary investment issue to the US does "tweak my beak" a bit, however. It simply isn't true and also, IMO, the Soviet fighting style contributed significantly to the magnitude of loss. That's a different discussion, however.

Sure, Russian industry contributed significantly. However, just as significant is that the US contributed $50,940,000,000 by 1945 ($485,142,857,143 in today's dollars) to nations around the world while building its own huge war machine that fought a two-front war and did so in such a short period of time.

Further, these LL items were offered on a "cost" basis, with no interest and an extremely deferred repayment schedule. Who else but those arrogant, heartless, capitalistic Yank bastiges would demand such usurious terms from countries involved in desperate warfare involving national survival?    

Money is the absolute cheapest cost of a war. Balanced against the loss of life and sorrow it, is almost meaningless. Nonetheless, check this link if you wish to compare industrial effort:
 http://members.aol.com/forcountry/ww2/wc1.htm

"This looks like you're not entirely approve of Russia's sticking to the treaties with your good selves and England about declaring war on Japan - your enemy at the time. "

Treaties? Just pointing out a little problem the Stalin regime seemed to have with almost ANY treaty.  

You must admit that Stalin's regime always had a very difficult time abiding by the treaties it signed. In fact, one could probably make the case that the regime merely used treaties as expedient means to achieve goals and simply ignored them as soon as they became an impediment to the next goal.

Perhaps Professor Storm could now take us through the various treaties the Soviet Union made with Poland in the 18 years prior to September 17, 1939?  

Stalin was suprised by our having the atomic bomb? No, I don't think so. He may not have had the exact date, but he knew the capability and knew we were close to using it.
 http://www.cia.gov/csi/books/venona/preface.htm

"Stalin's clandestine sources, however, obtained detailed political, military, and diplomatic reports on his allies' strategic planning and war aims.(34) He knew of the bomb project long before the new President Truman finally divulged it to him in July 1945. The KGB effort against the Manhattan Project (codenamed ENORMOUS) represented a shift in collection emphasis. Moscow hitherto had regarded the United States primarily as a source of information useful in the war against Germany; now America became in Russian eyes a rival and even a threat to the Soviet Union itself. Soviet agents penetrated the Manhattan Project at several points. At the Los Alamos facility alone, at least four agents reported through couriers such as Lona Cohen to the Soviet consulate in New York, where a KGB sub-residency under a young engineer named Leonid R. Kvasnikov (covername ANTON) coordinated operations and dispatched intelligence to Moscow."

Also, this statement is incorrect:

"Russia paid for everything in gold as far as I know."

It's been discussed in previous threads as well as this one. To recap, first it hasn't yet all been paid off. Some was paid eventually, some was written off entirely as a "bad debt" and some small amount remains today (still without interest btw   ).

Secondly, of the debt that was repaid, not all was in currency or precious metal. Some was commodity or other type payments.

A small note, but "factually" correct I think, as a bit of research will show you.  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline -lynx-

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I am most certainly not impugning the courage or tenacity of the "troops", the Soviet Armed Forces in WW2
Thank you Sir  

It really needs to be moved out of this group