Would a 9mm pistol round bounce?

[Chalenge]

Most police BBS cycle off old posts so you cannot always find things you have read before. Here is one from St. Louis (and you can find this same type of thing in any city not just St. Louis). This does not actually support either side of the argument but...

St. Louis -- The pistol in every St. Louis police officer's duty holster is a 9 mm Beretta 92F semiautomatic. It will dispense 16 slugs the diameter of a good-sized pen with as many pulls on the trigger.

Those bullets fly with the power to punch through eight sheets of drywall. But in today's tough crime environment, is it enough wallop to overpower an armed threat?

The St. Louis Police Officers Association is raising the question with a suggestion that the department switch to .40-caliber pistols, which experts say have more stopping power plus less tendency to pass through the target and on to unintended consequences.

It is a transition already made by many other large departments in the region, although city officers clearly find themselves most often under fire. That fire, some of them say, is increasingly heavy-caliber.

"We want to be able to compete with what's out on the street," said Sgt. Gary Wiegert, the association president. "Right now we can't. There's so much violence going on out on the street right now. ... How do you contain someone if you're outgunned?"

But Sgt. William Kiphart, who heads the department's firearms training, said the issue is not as simple as it might sound. He insisted police most often face criminals with common-caliber handguns, meaning officers are rarely outgunned.

Kiphart said the department will run exhaustive tests in about three years on what the next generation of weapons should be. "We're not closing our mind to anything," he said. "It's a big puzzle, and I objectively compare each piece."

The city has used 9 mm Berettas for about 16 years, with each weapon in use about 10 years.

The 9 mm versus .40-caliber debate is "like splitting hairs," Kiphart said. "It comes down to accuracy, reliability of the equipment ... and the skills of the person using the weapon."

He said the 9 mm Berettas have less recoil than .40-caliber weapons, and the smaller 9 mm projectile is more accurate.

The concept of stopping power is a myth -- "There is no such thing," he said. The issue is where an officer places shots and the degree they penetrate.

Officers "want a magic bullet," Kiphart said. "There is no magic bullet."

Wiegert's concern is about how many hits it takes to incapacitate an adversary. Police studies show that some people can withstand grievous injuries and keep firing.

David Klinger, a professor of criminology at University of Missouri-St. Louis and former police officer, said, "All else equal, most people want to have a bigger round."

Caliber is a decimal of an inch; a .40-caliber bullet is four-tenths of an inch in diameter, about one-ninth larger than a 9 mm. While the hole sizes are close, the energy delivered by the larger bullet is significantly greater. Specifications from one ammunition maker, Winchester, show a 27.5 percent difference (408 foot-pounds, a standard measurement of force, compared with 320).

Wiegert also expressed concern that city police issued 9 mm rifles, which use the same ammunition as the pistols, when shotguns were phased out of patrol cars about 3 1/2 years ago. He said that's not enough, either.

Kiphart said the Beretta CX4 Storm Carbines, equipped with holographic scopes, allow for a high level of accuracy from a long distance.

Many other area departments still carry 12-gauge shotguns, often the Remington Model 870 pump-action. Some, like Maryland Heights, Florissant and St. Peters, equip at least some cars with military-style rifles, which they say offer long-range punch with less chance of collateral damage than a shotgun.

In the city, police can call for the Hostage Response Team to get heavier firepower.

Long guns aside, police rely most heavily on their sidearms. For the Missouri Highway Patrol, Illinois State Police, St. Louis County police, Madison County Sheriff's Department, FBI and others, that means one brand or another of .40-caliber. Some, like University City and Creve Coeur, use 9 mm.

"It's going to depend a lot on who you talk to and what experience they have in the field," said Officer John Bozarth, armorer for the St. Louis County Police Department, which has used .40-calibers since 1991.

"With the .40-caliber, ... most officers feel more comfortable with their ability to stop an assailant because of the bigger caliber, the bigger bullet," Bozarth said.

But it doesn't end with that, he noted. He prefers the feel and accuracy of the Beretta to the widely used .40-caliber Glock, noting that a 9 mm shot that hits its target is more valuable than a .40-caliber that doesn't. The county uses Sig Sauer brand .40-caliber pistols.

In testing with standard ammunition two years ago, Bozarth found that the 9 mm round had more penetrating power in building materials; it got through eight sheets of drywall, while the .40-caliber did not.

Too much penetration is a concern in police work, with fears that a slug may pass through a criminal or a wall and hit bystanders.

"The 9 mm goes through a whole lot more things that you don't want it to go through than the .40," Bozarth said.

At Maryland Heights, Officer Kevin Stewart said that was a consideration in his department's recent switch from 9 mm. He explained, "The .40-caliber is going to knock them down but not go through and hit somebody else."

[Ruler2]

A pistol round like a 9mm P or .45 ACP could do serious damage to an aircraft similar to a rifle round like the British .303 used in the early Spits and Hurris.

You just said damage and .303 in the same sentence.... 

You'd be there all day shooting nything other than an A6M or D3A with .303s, and .45 pistol rounds don't have nearly the speed or stability that the .303s do, considering the increased wind resistance, I wouldn't think a .45 round would go much farther than about 50-75 yds, and even then with that small round it wouldn't be very accurate.

[Widewing]

Average effective range for revolvers is 30 feet, if I recall my old-west history (and these guns are normally more accurate than auto-loading pistols because the barrel does not move).

Krusty, I can shoot 2" to 3" groups at 25 yards with the S&W Model 29 and Beretta 96D, off hand. This is not a great accomplishment, either. Revolvers are not more accurate than most semi-autos. Revolvers have to deal with cylinder/barrel alignment. Even a minor misalignment (a few thousandths of an inch) will result in reduced accuracy. Not every pistol has a Browning type tipping/link action. Some are simple blowback designs. Some have actual rotating bolts (like rifles). You can't pigeonhole handguns.

By the way, this entire thread is dumber than a sack of dead cats.....


My regards,

Widewing

[Die Hard]

You just said damage and .303 in the same sentence.... 

You'd be there all day shooting nything other than an A6M or D3A with .303s, and .45 pistol rounds don't have nearly the speed or stability that the .303s do, considering the increased wind resistance, I wouldn't think a .45 round would go much farther than about 50-75 yds, and even then with that small round it wouldn't be very accurate.

Most 9mm loads are supersonic at the muzzle. That means they're going more than 750 mph. The added speed of the aircraft will not affect the ballistics that much.

For a pistol round out of a 4" barrel; 200 yards is a very long range. Not much energy left. You would be fortunate to penetrate the aircraft skin. Ball ammo would likely do little more than dimple the aluminum if there was any understructure.


My regards,

Widewing

At 200 yards a typical 9mm has lost about half its energy.

[Die Hard]

The effective difference of common pistol calibers is... limited.

[E25280]

At 200 yards a typical 9mm has lost about half its energy.

. . . if fired from a stationary position at a stationary target.

Fired from a plane at another plane 200 yards away, both moving at 300mph, the distance traveled by the bullet from muzzle to target is longer than 200 yards, and the initial deceleration out of the muzzle is increased vs. firing from a stationary position. 

The force of impact of the hypothetical 9mm round fired plane to plane from a dead 6 position is therefore much less than half.

[Widewing]

Most 9mm loads are supersonic at the muzzle. That means they're going more than 750 mph. The added speed of the aircraft will not affect the ballistics that much.


At 200 yards a typical 9mm has lost about half its energy.


(Image removed from quote.)

This chart is for rounds fired from a carbine type 16" barrel. From a 4" pistol barrel, the 9mm will barely carry 140 ft/lbs out to 200 yards... Making it nearly useless, along with an accuracy that could be described as barely above random.

My 9mm carbine is a great little rifle, but quite ineffective beyond 100 yards. On the other hand, my .357 Mag chambered Winchester 1892 is quite lethal out to 200 yards, but I'm shooting hand loads that generate over 2,000 fps at the muzzle.


My regards,

Widewing

[Die Hard]

Silly as this thread topic is... Would you put a 4" pistol barrel on an aircraft weapon or a 16" SMG/carbine barrel?

[Die Hard]

. . . if fired from a stationary position at a stationary target.

Fired from a plane at another plane 200 yards away, both moving at 300mph, the distance traveled by the bullet from muzzle to target is longer than 200 yards, and the initial deceleration out of the muzzle is increased vs. firing from a stationary position.

If both aircraft are flying at the same speed and direction the relative distance is the same as if they were stationary. The only variable is the increased drag. However, altitude is also an important factor when considering drag. Time of flight for a 9mm to 200 yards is less than a second.

[Saurdaukar]

Still no pictures or first hand accounts, only second hand stories... or more like tenth hand.

Well, if 2nd (or 10th) hand experience is insufficient for you, and ignoring military service, I worked my way through college at a then local range as an NRA-certified pistol instructer.  We got into all sorts of mischievous testing after hours.  What sort of first-hand accounts would you like?

Granted, this was pre-digital camera so I dont have any video proof for you, sorry.  

As a caveat, regardless, I should mention that the offer stands under the assumption that you might actually consider alternative viewpoints rather than follow your usual MO and argue for the sake of argument.  Should that be the case, please let me know and I'll pass.  Whether or not you 'believe' my statement has not the slightest impact on my day.

Cheers.

[Bronk]

If both aircraft are flying at the same speed and direction the relative distance is the same as if they were stationary. The only variable is the increased drag. However, altitude is also an important factor when considering drag. Time of flight for a 9mm to 200 yards is less than a second.

.... and at 300 MPH that's about 150 yard in about a second. IIRC

[E25280]

If both aircraft are flying at the same speed and direction the relative distance is the same as if they were stationary. The only variable is the increased drag. However, altitude is also an important factor when considering drag. Time of flight for a 9mm to 200 yards is less than a second.

A plane traveling 300mph is the same as 440 feet per second, correct?

Your muzzle velocity on one of your charts states 1181f/s.  440f/s added to this is an increase of 37% to the muzzle velocity.  Since drag increases with the square of velocity, this equates to roughly 88% increase in drag at the muzzle.  So although your planes remain at a constant relative distance, the drag on the bullet is nearly twice as much given similar air densities.  Its hitting power once it reaches the target will therefore be much less than the stationary shooter / stationary target scenario.

Now if you want to muddy the water by bringing altitude into it so you don't have to admit to being wrong, I'm OK with that.

[bravoa8]

Just do a test how many bailed pilots with a .45 does it take to kill one A6M??? Well were about to find out as the first bailed pilot walks to the zero...

[PFactorDave]

A plane traveling 300mph is the same as 440 feet per second, correct?

Your muzzle velocity on one of your charts states 1181f/s.  440f/s added to this is an increase of 37% to the muzzle velocity.  Since drag increases with the square of velocity, this equates to roughly 88% increase in drag at the muzzle.  So although your planes remain at a constant relative distance, the drag on the bullet is nearly twice as much given similar air densities.  Its hitting power once it reaches the target will therefore be much less than the stationary shooter / stationary target scenario.

Now if you want to muddy the water by bringing altitude into it so you don't have to admit to being wrong, I'm OK with that.

Honestly, he's on the right track here.  I really wasn't kidding in my first post when I asked if the shooting plane would have to fly through his own bullets...

[thorsim]

don't some of those police records show people being killed from celebration gunfire
(pointing guns up in the air and firing them) coming back down from very far (miles) away?

how much harder to penetrate are aircraft skins vs. human skulls and other body parts.

i still think some here are not having the same discussion.  i have yet to see anyone suggest the 9x19 Luger round would be a good choice to build an air to air gun around. 

i also seen no serious argument that you could not damage a plane with that round even if it hit from a couple of hundred yards away, either from a pistol, or a longer barreled MG.