Author Topic: Aircraft intro dates........ (Read 769 times)

eddiek · « **on:** December 20, 2001, 10:03:00 AM »

Okay, I know someone posted this some time back, but I cannot find the search feature anymore.....so..........
One guy in the MA this morning asked a question I did not have a good answer for..he asked when the Spit XIV was introduced, and then asked when the 109G10 was introduced.
I am not sure, all I can find on either is early 1944, so when he asked "Why don't we have the XIV then?" all I could do was sit there. I know it is not up to me, it is Pyro and HiTech's decision on when and what planes are introduced. But, ya know, his question does make sense.
All the figures I have found on the Spit XIV indicate it would be on par with the G10 we have, which is 12-24 mph faster than the "commonly" listed top speeds of the G10. Before you LW lovers get your leather panties in a wad, I am not saying that some G10's were not equipped with the engine Pyro chose to model in the AH 109G10. No doubt, there were. I have no idea what portion of the G10's were so equipped, and I guess it does not matter, we have one that does 440TAS per someone's tests, the charts show nearer 450......
Okay, now to the meat of my post.....can anyone give a rational explanation or justification as to why people insist that if the Spit XIV is introduced in AH, it "has" to be perked?
From my viewpoint, and I am definitely NOT a Spit lover, it makes not sense to perk a Spitfire that is just "even" with the 109G10 and 190D9.
Here is a link I found that gives a nice description of the Spit XIV, and trials against the Spit IX, the Mustang III, and the 190 and 109: http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html

Click on the links at the bottom of the page.......more data there....

Karnak · « **Reply #1 on:** December 20, 2001, 10:58:00 AM »

The Spitfire F.MkXIVc entered service with 610 Squadron on January 2, 1944. The first kill with a Spitfire F.MkXIVc came in March, 1944.

We don't have the Spit XIV beacause the Spitfire F.MkIX is already the best plane in AH!

OK, that isn't true. But the Spit IX does get the most usage. HTC will add the Spit XIV when they feel like it.

The Spit XIV will be the earliest aircraft to be perked. I hope that it only costs about 30 points, but it is entirely possible that it could cost 70 or more.

J_A_B · « **Reply #2 on:** December 20, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »

"it "has" to be perked?"

Planes aren't perked based on introduction dates. They're perked if they don't fit well with the planeset.

A lowly 1942 Spit IX is the most common plane in the MA. A 1944 Spit 14 has all the advantages of the Spit IX (turning ability, easygoing departure behavior, hispanos) and also could out-run, out-climb, and out-dive almost anything currently unperked in the arena.

Some people want an LA7 perked. Now just imagine a longer-range, hispano-armed LA7 that could turn with a Spit 9......and you have a plane which more or less HAS to be perked.

Change the type of fighting being done and perhaps the Spit 14 wouldn't look so good. Maybe, when it's added, it wouldn't need to be perked in say the CT. It's just that, for the type of fighting being done in the MA, the Spit 14 is dominant.

J_A_B

eddiek · « **Reply #3 on:** December 20, 2001, 12:23:00 PM »

Interesting replies......

I respectfully disagree with ya JAB, however, based on my own opinion. What Karnak said is true, the Spit is the most common plane I see in the MA, in part, IMHO, to it's ease in getting kills. Heck, even I can get kills in it.

As a matter of fact, anytime I take one up, I KNOW I will get at least one kill, likely two or more. I have never been one who can run up multiple kills, I do not have the patience.

I charge off into the fray most of the time, end up getting a few kills, then the "greed" sets in and I end up dead.

Maybe I am wrong in my way of thinking, but the way I see it, no plane is untouchable, unless the pilot is already smart and knows how to get the most out of the plane. Take a G10 for instance: Featherweight airframe, in AH a great engine, good acceleration, and it will climb great. Flown correctly, the plane is untouchable. For nonperked planes, the P51 and 190D9 are the only two that even near it in terms of top speed, and it blows both away in the climb category. So, like I said, if the pilot flies it smart, it is "untouchable", as is any plane if the pilot pays attention to what he is doing. Likewise, any plane can be killed if the pilot does not fly it to it's strengths.
Taking a G10 into a low level fight and trying to turn with a Spit is stupid. You do that and you are just inviting the other guy to shoot you down.
I guess I was looking at the performance numbers of the planes. Just looking at those, it would seem a crock to perk the XIV while the Ponies, 109G10, and 190D9 remained unperked. All are within 10mph of one another in top speed, with the G10 and the XIV being too close to call IMO in climb. The Ponies and the D9 are close in that category, and are a good match. Not sure which of those two outturns the other, but I think they are a pretty close match there, aren't they?
All I am doing is playing devil's advocate here. I "might" fly the XIV if they introduced it, but not much as I am not a Spit fan. The one perk ride you would see me burning my points on would be the one ride I do not see HTC introducing for a LONG time......the P47M.

Staga · « **Reply #4 on:** December 20, 2001, 12:51:00 PM »

http://www.hitechcreations.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002701

eddiek · « **Reply #5 on:** December 20, 2001, 04:15:00 PM »

Thanks Staga........did not see that thread...

So, the Spit XIV entered service or combat in March '44, seven months before the G10?
Interesting.........

funkedup · « **Reply #6 on:** December 20, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »

Staga my favorite is the middle part of Echoes on the Live at Pompeii recording.

Kweassa · « **Reply #7 on:** December 21, 2001, 10:46:00 AM »

I don't know if a Spit14 would turn with a Spit9, but generally, the tendency of aircraft evolution is to become faster and more powerful, while gradually losing pure turning ability - attribute which was very important in the 'traditional' style of aircombat introduced in WWI.

So I'm guessing Spit14 would probably fall within the line, and it won't turn as good as a Spit9. But considering most other competent aircraft in MA, I think if Spit14 is introduced, it will make every other sort of plane obsolete.

In my opinion, P-51, 190D-9s, 109G10-s, while untouchable, all have a distinct disadvantage in certain parts of performance which acts as a preventor to destroying game balance. The low alt performance and climb rate sucks in 51, which prevents them from being dominant in MA style furballs, and limits their kills to high alt fights or advantageous vulching. 190D-9s are pretty much simular. G-10s have horrible high speed control, therefore only about 80% of its potential speed is used in tense combat, making it pretty vulnerable for a short time. (Of course, running away is something different...)

They may have high survival rate, but they certainly ain't easy to "fly".

On the other there's a plane faster than the 109G-10(which has the highest top speed in HTC charts except Me262 and Ta152), outturns about every aircraft capable of speed over 400 mph, turns a little bit worse than a SpitIX.

Why should anyone fly any other plane? I mean, the folks who don't have a distinct preference for a certain plane type, and just pick the easiest ones to fly, enjoy and get kills in (the usual people who consist the MA furballs

). The basis of reasons against perking La-7s were that it had a weakness of some sort. Performance problem at alts.

What sort of weaknesses would a Spit14 have?

In regards to balance, I definately think we need a SpitXIV, and I definately think it needs to be perked... and after early/mid war plane set is finished, D9, G10, 51D and La-7 should all be perked, too.

....

gatt · « **Reply #8 on:** December 21, 2001, 11:17:00 AM »

Well, being mostly an axis flyer I should not say it .... but the Spit XIV should not be perked for the same reason the Dora, the G-10, the La7 and the P-51D are not.

*If* the Spitfire XIV is the best WW2 fighter, I mean of the whole 1941 -> mid 1945 and fantasy prop/jets apart, it is not his fault. We should accept it.

I'm still waiting a valid reason why we dont have the XIV and why it should be perked. Is the USAF/USN lobby scared?

I hope not. BTW, the Warbirds MkXIV is not unbeatable.

That said, whers my 1,750hp, 3 cannons armed, even perked, G.56?

Karnak · « **Reply #9 on:** December 21, 2001, 11:27:00 AM »

I don't know where people are getting the idea that the Spit XIV would aout perform eveything besides the 262 in every way. It'll be dang good true, but it isn't THAT fast until you get really high.

Here is a quick comparison:

Deck speeds:

Me262A-1: 515mph on the deck (200 perks)
Tempest MkV: 385mph on the deck (70 perks)
La-7: 382mph on the deck (0 perks)
F4U-4 Corsair: 377mph on the deck (60 perks)
Fw190D-9: 376mph on the deck (0 perks)
Typhoon MkIb: 372mph on the deck (0 perks)
Bf109G-10: 370mph on the deck (0 perks)
P-51D Mustang: 367mph on the deck (0 perks)
P-51B Mustang: 364mph on the deck (0 perks)
Ta152H-1: 363mph on the deck (30 perks)
Yak-9U: 358mph on the deck (0 perks)
Spitfire F.MkXIVc: 357mph on the deck (TBD perks)

Best speeds:

Me262A-1: 540mph at 19,000ft
Ta152H-1: 460mph at 30,000ft (AH chart ends at that altitude)
Bf109G-10: 452mph at 22,000ft
Spitfire F.MkXIVc: 448mph at 27,000ft
P-51B Mustang: 442mph at 28,000ft
F4U-4 Corsair: 438mph at 25,000ft
P-51D Mustang: 437mph at 24,000ft
Tempest MkV: 432mph at 16,000ft
Fw190D-9: 432mph at 17,000ft
Yak-9U: 420mph at 16,000ft
La-7: 417mph at 20,000ft
Typhoon MkIb: 416mph at 17,000ft

Initial climb rates:

Bf109G-10: 4,700ft per min
Spitfire F.MkXIVc: 4,580ft per min
Tempest MkV: 4,550ft per min
La-7: 4,500ft per min
Fw190D-9: 4,050ft per min
Me262A-1: 3,900ft per min
F4U-4 Corsair: 3,700ft per min
Yak-9U: 3,600ft per min
Ta152H-1: 3,550ft per min
P-51D Mustang: 3,500ft per min
Typhoon MkIb: 3,400ft per min
P-51B Mustang: 3,300ft per min

My estimates of their turn capabilities:

1: Yak-9U
2: Spitfire F.MkXIVc
3: La-7
4: P-51B Mustang
5: P-51D Mustang
6: F4U-4 Corsair
7: Tempest MkV
8: Typhoon MkIb
9: Bf109G-10
10: Ta152H-1
11: Me262A-1
12: Fw190D-9

Numbers built:

Yak-9U: Gobs
P-51D Mustang: Gobs
La-7: Gobs
Typhoon MkIb: 3,500 or so
P-51B Mustang: Lots
Bf109G-10: Lots?
Me262A-1: 1,300 or so
Spitfire MkXIV: 957
Fw190D-9: 800 or so
Tempest MkV Series 2: 705
Ta-152H1: 50-150

F4U-4 Corsair: ???

Firepower estimates:

1: Me262A-1
2: Tempest MkV
3: Typhoon MkIb
4: Ta152H-1
5: Spitfire MkXIV
6: Fw190D-9
7: La-7
8: F4U-4 Corsair
9: P-51D Mustang
10: Bf109G-10
11: P-51B Mustang
12: Yak-9U

There are many other factors as well favoring various aircraft. WEP duration, fuel endurance, durability, visibility, Perk aircraft icon, dive capability, high speed handling, ect, ect.

EDIT:

Gatt,

The MkXIV needs to be perked for arena balance, the same reason that the F4U-1C needed to be perked. Hopefully it will be also be affordable.

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]

F4UDOA · « **Reply #10 on:** December 21, 2001, 11:31:00 AM »

[ 12-21-2001: Message edited by: F4UDOA ]

Kweassa · « **Reply #11 on:** December 21, 2001, 08:55:00 PM »

Ok ok! I confess

To tell you the truth,my idea on what I imagine a Spit XIV would be is probably biased by the name "Spitfire". And as a result, the estimates of turning capabilities by Karnak is quite shocking.

The deepest, inner most fear I have comes from my childhoo...er.. Fighter Aces 2 days. No matter how funky the FM was, the Jolly Green GBR Giants and their SpitXIV hoarde was by far the most annoying set of bozos I've ever seen... and naturally, I shudder at the sight of AH becoming a SpitXIV slug fest.

All my experiences with Spit14 comes from either boxed games like EAW(which was heavily "Spit Oriented"), or cranky FMs by FA2. All the SpitXIV I've seen there turned like Spit9s. Only planes that could out turn it were 109F4 and A6M2 Zero. They were a bane to most pilots flying LW or USAAF, the freaking super easy "point-and-shoot" plane which would just hurl itself turning to your direction, just won't come off from your tail whatever you do what ever ACM you try, and you can't even run away from it.

If what Karnak says is true, the Spit seems like it would be a faster Yak-9U, and seems it definately wouldn't turn like a Spit9. (It turns worse than the Yak-9U... the Yak-9U in MA certainly isn't a good turner, maybe an average one...).

In that case

I have no objections if it came out unperked.

What I imagine when I hear "SpitXIV" is a 450 mph N1K2-J that climbs as good as a 109G-10. If it ain't so, no big deal then.

(Geez, I feel I'm being very shallow here

)

Kweassa · « **Reply #12 on:** December 21, 2001, 08:58:00 PM »

One question, Karnak.

How did you get the estimated result that a Spit14 would turn worse than a Yak-9U?

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #13 on:** December 22, 2001, 02:07:00 AM »

Pilots said SpitXIV wasnt really really a spit anymore, it handled much diffrent from the others it wasnt as good there.

Replicant · « **Reply #14 on:** December 22, 2001, 05:46:00 AM »

Remember that we have THREE Spitfires, the Spit V, Seafire IIB, and the Spit IX, so when you say it's very popular it doesn't necessarily mean that they are all Spit IXs!

I for one hope the Spit XIV isn't perked because all the other RAF fighter aircraft are either perked (Tempest) or 1941/42 aircraft (not classing the Mossie as a fighter! - additionally the Typhoon IB we have has a late style canopy, but it's basically an early 1942 aircraft).

Regards

Nexx