P-47M & N !! Gimme,gimme,gimme!!

[Vector]

S!

Haven't seen this topic for while so it's time to bring it up again. With luck HTC is so in x'mas mood that they'll model either of these terrific jugs. Further why not modify AH's current D-25 to M or N? I've never quite understood why to model 2 such a similar jugs like D-25 and D-30 are? Not offence to those who flies D-25 regurlarly      


P-47N
ENGINE:Pratt & Whitney R-2800-73 Double Wasp 2,800 h.p.
ARMAMENT:8 - .50 cal. machine guns & up to 3,000 lbs. of ordnance
WING SPAN:42 feet, 7 inches
LENGTH:36 feet, 1 inches
HEIGHT:14 feet, 8 inches
MAXIMUM SPEED:505 mph      
RANGE (W/ EXTERNAL TANKS):2,350 miles
SERVICE CEILING:30,000 feet

P-47M's top speed was officially 470mph, but it was able to achive 488mph at the tests. Also R-2800 engine was tested at additional boost, which gave it 3600hp! Engine worked without any malfunctions 250 hours. Tough engine!
Someone with better information of these great fighters, please give some.

         
P-47N

EDIT: As a perk plane of course!


       
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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: vector ]

[Vector]

Hmm, there's one big problem tho; P-47M (J?) climbs 4900 fpm at SL and 4400 fpm at 20K!!
That would be too much for leather-wearing boys to handle!
 


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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[Sancho]

Here's some comparison data:

               P-47D-25        P-47M-1         P-47N-1
Max Speed       430             475             465
Max Speed(SI)   690             760             750
At Alt          30 000          32 000          32 000
At Alt(SI)      9 140           9 750           9 750
Ceiling         42 000          41 000          43 000
Ceiling(SI)     12 800          12 500          13 100
Range           1 030           530             2 000
Range(SI)       1 660           852             3 220

Source: [i]Republic P-47 Thunderbolt[/i], by Martin Velek and Valerij Roman, MBI, 1992.

As much as I like the P-47M (and I still want to see it in AH), if I had to choose between the two, I think the N should be modelled first.  It would be the better suited for the main arena.  Here's why:

• It is only 10 mph slower than the M, yet it has four times the range of the M.
• It is the only P-47 made with the clipped wing design, which gave it a nice advantage in roll-rate (from 79° to 98°/sec) and also improved rate and diameter of turn.
• The N climbed to 32 000 feet (9 750 m) in 13.5 minutes, averaging 2370 FPM.  I don't have the numbers on hand for the M's climb, but Vector's data looks familiar--it was much better climber than the N and would give 109-G10s fits.  
• And lets not forget the P-47N's loadout capabilities: 3000 lbs of bombs and rockets could be carried.

The specific variant modelled should be the P-47N-5-RE.  550 units (of an overall 1816 P-47Ns)  were produced and saw action in the PTO.  In contrast, only 130 total P-47M-1s were produced.

Now, arguably the M would be easier for HTC to model.  Its 3d model would be identical to the P-47D-30 only with a different skin.  (The skin would have to be a 56th FG scheme since they were the only unit to get the M.   )  The N would take a little bit more work for the elongated and clipped wings.  

Both these "uber jugs" would be excellent additions to the AH planeset.

[ 12-22-2001: Message edited by: Sancho ]

[Urchin]

Originally posted by vector:
Hmm, there's one big problem tho; P-47M (J?) climbs 4900 fpm at SL and 4400 fpm at 20K!!
That would be too much for leather-wearing boys to handle!
 


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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

No, as much as you idiots might think otherwise, we'd still deal with it.

[Hobodog]

Lets be nice and Take the XP-72 Suepr Jug instead. Just cuz the gerrys think they can deal with us. I wish we could have it them leather-crotchs would die at the stick. 4 37mm. Not too mention 4200 raw horses.

[Hobodog]

And thats without boost.

[Vermillion]

I'm personally inclined to the N model myself since its a much more representative model.

Hell, the luftwaffles would get really pissed if I was running this game. IMO I think the F4U-4 and the P-47N, are just the equivalent of the 109G10(K4), 190D9, and Spit XIV of the game. So I wouldn't even perk em.  

[Vector]

S!
Sancho thx for the info, here's a citation from An online World War II aviation history magazine
There's a list of sources:
RESOURCES:
Warren M. Bodie, Republic's P-47 Thunderbolt.
Roger Freeman, Republic Thunderbolt.
Enzo Angelucci and Peter Bowers, The American Fighter.
David R. McLaren, Beware The Thunderbolt: The 56th FG in WWII.
 
It 's about M & J, dunno about the final differences between these two.

The P-47M was, essentially, developed collaterally with the XP-47J. The "J" was fitted with a high output version of the P&W R-2800. Specifically, the R-2800-57. This engine made 2,800 hp @ 2,800 rpm at 35,000 feet. This is in War Emergency Power. The aircraft actually attained 507 mph at an altitude of 34,300 feet. 2,800 hp is 133% of rated power. At military power (100%), the XP-47J could sustain 470 mph. 435 mph was attained at 81% of its rated power (1,700 hp). All performance figures were obtained at 34,300 feet. The "J" model was an especially good climbing fighter too. It had a climb rate at sea level of 4,900 fpm. At 20,000 feet, it was still rocketing up at 4,400 fpm, and got there in 4 minutes, 15 seconds. Time to 30,000 feet was only 6 minutes, 45 seconds. Now that's an interceptor! Yet it had a usable range of 1,075 miles. Rather impressive, don't you think? No, this was not a stripped down hotrod. It was fully armed and carried ballast in the wings equal to 267 rds per gun. The aircraft was flown to a height of 46,500 feet and was capable of a bit more.

And sancho, you already have 56th FG scheme, how about 348th FG for next one?
 


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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[Daff]

Vector, the only unit to use M's was the 56th FG.
The climbrate quoted above is for the XP-47J, a prototype, that never went into production. The P-47M's climbrate is a lot more moderate, at 3600fpm with WEP.
The P-47N had  a initial climbrate of a mere 2800fpm, but that's with 3.000lbs worth of extra fuel.

Daff

[Broes]

Whats wrong with the other 4 p47 types?! I had rather see 1 totaly new plane then 5 new variants of something we already have 4 versions of!

Broes

[Vector]

S!

Thanks for the info Daff, yes I know 56th got P-47M's, but you jug freaks already have D-11 in your colors!  
Oh, that's quite confusing page about M, it's M page with lot of information on J.
Btw, can you guys recommend a good P-47 book with lots of technical info in it?


Broes what do you mean of having 4 P-47's? In AH we have 3 (D-11,D-25,D-30) whereas 4x109's, 4x190's. P-47 had a major role in ETO and some in pasific too. We have 109G-10 and 190D-9, late war monsters, why not one jug monster too? I doubt it'd come too popular at MA tho.
But you're right about having totally new model, but considering the workload of HTC, P-47M would be easier to produce (and N with slight wing modification?).

Hey it's x'mas, it's permissible to dream..
 

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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[Tac]

Yes, and only 1 version of P-38. Unfair! Paint it green! Paint it green!    

[Sancho]

Originally posted by vector:
Btw, can you guys recommend a good P-47 book with lots of technical info in it?

Vector, the book I mentioned above is quite good.  Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, by Martin Velek and Valerij Roman, MBI, 1997.  ISBN 80-902238-0-X.  In Czech and English.     Looks like this:

 

Things I like about this book: it has a performance chart comparing major variants from the P-47B to the P-47N.  The chart lacks only climb rate but that info is scattered around inside the text.  This book has simply the best 3-view drawings of the P-47 I've seen.  Also, it contains several pages on the P-47 in Soviet service--something I haven't seen anywhere else.  The book was cheap too: $14.  


Vector, you mention Bodie's book above.  Warren Bodie's book is the largest single book (recently published) devoted to the P-47 that I know of, but in my opinion it is very poorly organized.  It appeals more to people looking for a lot of pictures and anecdotes about the economic and political forces that drove P-47 development.  There is some technical data scattered throughout, but notably absent are any performance charts.  There's charts that will tell you how to tell a P-47s exact variant and production block by looking at the tail number though, if you're in to that.  

[eddiek]

vector, I feel your pain, been asking for the P47M for about a year now....  
I seem to recall Pyro saying something about not wanting to model another Jug.....his choice, but if you're gonna model 4 109's and 4 190's, why not add another Jug?    
Yep, the P47M would be a monster, no doubt about it, and the higher the fight got, the better it would be.  For once, I would like to be able to start toward a fight in a Jug and know that I can be co-alt with a 109, WITHOUT having to grab alt in the opposite direction before I head in to do battle.  Oddly enough, it should have similiar range as the 109's, so it would not be something to hang around a long time in, as fuel would be critical after a little while, same as in the 109's.
Heck, Pyro, perk the thing, but please, please, give us the P47M!!!  

[Vector]

S!

Eddiek, we just need to hope for the best and keep spamming these boards over and over again with P-47M posts  
Sooner or later Pyro gets bored and starts to make "that dang jug" or he cancel our accounts...
I would like to be able to start toward a fight in a Jug and know that I can be co-alt with a 109, WITHOUT having to grab alt in the opposite direction before I head in to do battle.
Amen!

Btw sancho, couldn't find it from amazon. Do you know where to buy it from the net? Thx!


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vector
XO 348th FG "Kearby's Thunderbolts"

[ 12-24-2001: Message edited by: vector ]