Author Topic: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat  (Read 2662 times)

Offline SgtPappy

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Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« on: December 02, 2009, 11:22:48 PM »
Now, of course we all know that modern air-air combat is worlds away from what was seen in WWII.

However, a lot of folks here probably think that the what the U.S. says about their fighters' abilities to "fire and forget" really seems more myth than reality. Modern air-air combat is something that still requires skill in the air, from what I gather, and though ECM and BVR combat has become new, many fights (1 vs 1) can still be compared like they did in WWII. Pilots aim to dodge missiles, they don't just give up once they're locked onto.

Though, what I'd like to know from the more knowledgable community is just HOW much performance (climb, speed, acceleration and maneuverability) and Energy management really matters in today's 1 on 1 BVR and WVR combat scenarios.

There are tonnes of threads out there about the veteran F-16C for example facing off against a newer, never-before-seen-combat Su-30MKI for example, and no one can really give a straight answer because everyone focuses on the Su-30's supermaneuverability. But in WWII, being a Zero does not mean winning. If the F-16C outclimbs and out accelerates you (don't know if it does, just an example) then, you do not have a guaranteed win. But does this apply anymore?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 11:25:00 PM by SgtPappy »
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Offline CAV

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2009, 11:49:36 PM »

1st, why would any well trained Air Force ever let one of its planes get into a 1 vs 1?

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Offline Warspawn

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 01:17:35 AM »
Heh, there was a conversation tossed around here not too long ago between Iranian air defense operators and an F-22 Raptor on patrol...


Iranian Air Defense Operator: "Unidentified aircraft, you have entered Iranian airspace and are required to leave immediately or be engaged by our fighter aircraft!"

F-22 Pilot:  "This is a US aircraft flying over international waters."

Iranian Air Defense Operator:  "You are flying over Iranian airspace.  This is your final warning.  We are vectoring interceptors to your location."

F-22 Pilot:  "Send them up.  I'll wait right here."

There were no further transmissions from the Iranian Air Defense officer....
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Offline Krusty

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 01:22:23 AM »
That's just some boastful tall tale.. Never happened.

There's so many variations, changing the affiliation from US Navy to US Marines to US Air Force, (for whoever is doing the boasting)....


As for the original question, I'm not an expert or anything, but just from some of the stuff I've read from real pilots on other webpages, some forums, and so forth, it's all as important now as it was then. Same things are being taught, but lots lots more as well. It's something they train VERY hard for.

Offline TexMurphy

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 01:30:32 AM »
As for the original question, I'm not an expert or anything, but just from some of the stuff I've read from real pilots on other webpages, some forums, and so forth, it's all as important now as it was then. Same things are being taught, but lots lots more as well. It's something they train VERY hard for.

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Offline Lusche

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 01:38:14 AM »
Heh, there was a conversation tossed around here not too long ago between Iranian air defense operators and an F-22 Raptor on patrol...


I hearing that story for 25+ years now, with varying planes and against varying opponents  ;)
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Offline Kazaa

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 01:45:12 AM »
Krusty and we don't train really hard!

It's a lot of bloody hard work going down to china town and hoing the first aircraft I come across.



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Offline Gwjr2

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 02:01:00 AM »
this one did happen and is sorta off topic but funny  :cheers:

SR-71 Blackbird pilot Brian Shul reported one exchange. His SR-71 was screaming across Southern California, 13 miles high and its crew were monitoring cockpit chatter as they entered Los Angeles airspace. Though they didn't really control the SR-71, LA monitored its movement across their scope. The SR-71 crew heard a Cessna ask for a readout of ground speed.
"90 knots" Center replied.
Moments later, a Twin Beech required the same.
"120 knots," Center answered.
An F-18 smugly transmitted, "Ah, Center, Dusty 52 requests ground speed readout."
Center (after a slight pause): "525 knots on the ground, Dusty".
The SR-71 realized how ripe a situation this was for one-upmanship: "Center, Aspen 20, you got a ground speed readout for us?"
Center (after a longer than normal pause): "Aspen, I show 1,742 knots"
No further ground speed inquiries were heard on that frequency.
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Offline trotter

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 02:03:38 AM »
This is a great topic, and one that unfortunately never may be *fully* explored outside of weapons-cold mock dogfights. I say this not because modern air combat precludes 1 on 1 guns/rear-aspect meetings, but because modern air strategy and the evolving realities of late 20th/early 21st century warfare make most air campaigns a lopsided affair.

I'm no expert, but seems to me that every air campaign the United States has been involved in since, oh, just around Rolling Thunder '65, has been categorized by heavy emphasis on neutralization of enemy air assets in the opening days of the campaign, followed by a prolonged SEAD/Interdiction phase. Large scale air battles are no longer occurring; major military powers are no longer fighter each other in traditional wars, and any nation that finds itself against a major military power will attempt to negate the A/C numerical advantage of the latter by simplying staying on the ground and relying on air defense networks.

Sure, there have been A2A kills in many military operations post-Vietnam. However, they have resulted from attempts made by the "lesser military power" to strike back in the skies, and their sorties are often unorganized, sporadic, and poorly advised. Modern, organized air power has no problem eliminating these threats, often at ranges greater than 100nm.

For 1v1 guns/rear-aspect only combat to occur with any regularity, there needs to be a fight between two similiar military powers, or the air campaign needs to be of so prolonged a nature that the lesser air power can choose their battles and allocate their resources effectively (think Israel vs. her neighbours, for decades. In fact, I'd bet the Israeli Air Force has the most guns hot experience with close range 1v1's out of any other modern air power)

Anyway, to the issue of how a close-in 1v1 might be different in today's planes as opposed to WWII craft. Again, take this with a grain of salt, the following opinion following comes from flight simulations only. But when I play the Falcon series, or any other modern air combat sim, I'm always amused at how the maneuevers are so nearly the exact same, yet require a different skillset to be competitive with. Closure rate and throttle maintenence are very much more important to pay attention to, whereas energy maintenance is no longer the utmost thing. Manuevers are wider, there are less crossing snapshots but more of an importance upon choosing the proper type of pursuit (lag, true, lead). Even weaker climbing modern planes still climb like a banshee, so maintaining a 'perch' is not the methodical dance of move/countermove it is in WWII craft. These are my impressions, someone else may have others, but I think overall it is safe to state that there are similiarities in concept that may be slightly altered in application. Assuming a guns-only fight, I see no reason that the old adage of "it's not the plane, it's the pilot" would not still hold true (assuming, of course, you're not doing something like taking a MiG-21 against an F-16).

Offline Bino

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 07:41:58 AM »
Now, of course we all know that modern air-air combat is worlds away from what was seen in WWII...

Bear in mind that the oft-lamented Rules Of Engagement may interfere with one's ability to actually use all those keen wish-them-dead weapons.  For example, it was not uncommon over Viet Nam to require Phantoms carrying radar-homing Sparrow missiles to visually identify targets before firing on them.  Which kinda gave away that particular advantage.


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Offline Westy

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 07:55:19 AM »
Everything is the same it just takes more real estate to di it in.  In general.

Just as WWII aircraft performance was five times great than those of WWI the aircraft of today
are about 5 times greater than those used in WWII.

Still got to see (be it vis or radar), then id (vis or iff) and position an attack your enemy. 
Ask eagl. He could elaborate a lot more  and isn;t some couch potatoe claiming to have
been a "fer reele" P-51 pile-it or F-16 driver over the Arabian desert.

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 07:59:25 AM »
Quote
Modern air-air combat is something that still requires skill in the air, from what I gather, and though ECM and BVR combat has become new, many fights (1 vs 1) can still be compared like they did in WWII. Pilots aim to dodge missiles, they don't just give up once they're locked onto.


No doubt it still requires great skill but dont forget during Gulf-l, almost 20 years ago, almost all ATA kills by the USA were racked up BVR using missiles. The only enemy knocked down with Air gunnery, as I recall, was helicopters.

Now were 20 years on and several generations later. We retain cannon on fighters cause the pilots like them but the odds are not high they will be used against another aircraft.

Quote
Though, what I'd like to know from the more knowledgable community is just HOW much performance (climb, speed, acceleration and maneuverability) and Energy management really matters in today's 1 on 1 BVR and WVR combat scenarios.
Not that Im an "expert" but our current production aircraft are being built with operative performance requirements that are "good enough" instead of having to be "the best". When you have such an over-whelming advantage in stealth, avionics, support, you dont need something faster then the latest Russian jet. You only need something "fast enough".


In other words do you want an airframe that twitters about on its tail at air shows, and sets speed records? Or do you want one the enemy never even knows is there. At least until its missiles hits them. Assuming, that is, anything survives the opening night stealth/precision strike package in the first place.
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 08:37:34 AM »
Now were 20 years on and several generations later. We retain cannon on fighters cause the pilots like them but the odds are not high they will be used against another aircraft.

Ive heard this before.  Smokey engines were involved throughout and gondolas concluded the discussion.

Offline Crash Orange

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 10:22:21 AM »
Ive heard this before.  Smokey engines were involved throughout and gondolas concluded the discussion.

The technology wasn't mature then. Billy Mitchell was wrong when he said bombers could pwn battleships in 1921 (the tests were rigged). By 1941 he was right. Likewise with Douhet and the supremacy of strategic bombing, it just had to wait for B-29s and nukes.

Offline Anaxogoras

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Re: Modern vs. WWII air-air combat
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 10:52:07 AM »
A childhood friend of mine is an F-16C pilot in the air force, currently stationed in Korea.  We had a pretty extensive conversation about this topic last Summer, so I'll see if I can relate some of what he told me.

Now, of course we all know that modern air-air combat is worlds away from what was seen in WWII.

However, a lot of folks here probably think that the what the U.S. says about their fighters' abilities to "fire and forget" really seems more myth than reality. Modern air-air combat is something that still requires skill in the air, from what I gather, and though ECM and BVR combat has become new, many fights (1 vs 1) can still be compared like they did in WWII. Pilots aim to dodge missiles, they don't just give up once they're locked onto.

The fire and forget capability of the AMRAAM is very real.  Once the missile acquires its own radar lock a few seconds after launch, the pilot can turn around and break radar contact.  This is a huge advantage against the armaments of many Soviet era fighters because turning around after launch gives the possibility of moving beyond the range of missiles fired in retaliation, while the bandit will have to keep radar lock to guide his missile.  Newer systems coming out of Russia are also fire and forget, but are yet to be widely distributed amongst our typical opponents in future war scenarios.

Though, what I'd like to know from the more knowledgable community is just HOW much performance (climb, speed, acceleration and maneuverability) and Energy management really matters in today's 1 on 1 BVR and WVR combat scenarios.

My friend explained that what's most important is to be within corner speed velocity at the beginning of any visual range fight.  That's somewhere between 300-550 knots (I can't remember the exact range he told me).  Faster than that, and your turn radius will be too large and you will be an easy target.  On the other hand, a little slower than corner speed is not as serious because the thrust:weight ratio of the F-16 is somewhere close to 1.  Maneuverability is obviously important in a visual range fight, and my friend complains that the Mig-23 and other Soviet block fighters (not the Mig-29 and Su-27) would not match up to the F-16C like they do in a turning-fight in Falcon 4 AF.

I've watched him play Falcon 4 AF, and honestly, his view is almost always on the cockpit instruments, and rarely moving around to view outside the aircraft.  Pilots are trained to kill BVR, and his expertise at this is evident.  90% of his situational awareness is from expert use of radar and the circular threat indicator in the upper left part of the cockpit (that I can't remember the correct name for it is one of the ways I explain why I suck so badly at Falcon 4 AF).

Last Summer before I saw him he completed a red flag type operation in Alaska where his squadron faced off against the F-22.  I asked how it went and he said "we got our tulips kicked."  I asked why, was it because of the F-22's renowned maneuverability?  He answered "not at all, we never saw them."

There are tonnes of threads out there about the veteran F-16C for example facing off against a newer, never-before-seen-combat Su-30MKI for example, and no one can really give a straight answer because everyone focuses on the Su-30's supermaneuverability. But in WWII, being a Zero does not mean winning. If the F-16C outclimbs and out accelerates you (don't know if it does, just an example) then, you do not have a guaranteed win. But does this apply anymore?

I'm pretty sure that an F-16C pilot would be far more concerned about the Su-30's radar and weapon systems than its maneuverability.  The F-16C is sadly outclassed by the latest generation of fighters, and moral is affected because the aircraft are also old and falling apart.  That's why my friend says he doesn't care whether it's the F-22 or the F-35 (and the whole political debate that comes with it), either replacement aircraft with next generation technology is necessary.

Edit: Here is the thread where I initially posted about the conversation: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,268590.0.html
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 11:31:42 AM by Anaxogoras »
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