The Shiden, from a man who flew it :)

[Jekyll]

Couldn't resist this quote from Saburo Sakai in "Samurai"

"Unfortunately, the Shiden's flight characteristics were treacherous and demanded an experienced pilot.  Too many men with little time behind the controls of fighter planes never lived to fly the Shiden into combat.  Their familiarization flights killed them".

"Treacherous" ??

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[GRUNHERZ]

Quiet!!  You must be stoned!!!!  Then followed by thousands of BS excuses on how AH pilots are much better than their RL counterparts, and how we do this and that- in the end just exuses. I love Sakai's book and meant to bring this up before but you beat me to it.  Clearly right from one of the best combat pilots of all time, and also a wartime test pilot, saying the Niki was HARD to fly and had TREACHEROUS flying qualites. We may all certainly disagree on wheater Niki is UFO in AH, but can anyone honestly say that Niki has any behavior that even comes close to killing its pilots in large numbers or even approaches the word treacherous? Hard stall? NO Sudden Stall? NO Any Stall at all? NO   Viscious Spins? NO Huge Torque? NO

Whats up with our Niki FM? Cmon u cheereaders lets see ur usual BS dance!    

[This message has been edited by GRUNHERZ (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Karnak]

Did he fly an N1K1 or N1K2?

Would the mid wing of the N1K1 cause the departure performance to be different when compared with the low wing of the N1K2?

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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother

Bring the Spitfire F.MkXIVc to Aces High!!!

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Jekyll]

Good question Karnak.  I don't have any definitive answer as to whether it was the N1K1 or N1K2 Sakai refers to BUT ....

He DOES mention that the aircraft's 'baptism of fire' too place on March 19, 1945 over the Kure Naval Base.  He also mentions first test-flying a Shiden in September 1944.

Now production N1K1's began appearing in the Pacific theatre in early 1944, and were certainly well engaged in operations in the Phillipines in October 1944.  Seems strange for Sakai to be 'test-flying' an aircraft which was already in operational use.

However, the N1K2 had its first deliveries in July 1944, so test flying the aircraft in September of that year seems a reasonable proposition.  Sakai also mentions that the 'Shiden' he refers to was used for home island defence in Japan, which further tends to support the proposition that he is really referring to the N1K2.

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When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
Chapter 13, verse 11

[juzz]

Lots of other planes in AH are missing many of the "treacherous" flight characteristics that they had in real life too y'know... eg: where's the La-5/7 "killer bounce" on landing?

[hazed-]

well the 109 has that nasty narrow undercarraige and the horrendous roll rate at speed,the 190's ALL have an engine that cant take a hit which is BS   and the p51 has that vulnerable underbelly...oh no sorry the p51 DOESNT  

grunhertz keep going m8  


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Hazed
3./JG2

[This message has been edited by hazed- (edited 03-23-2001).]

[Citabria]

f6f5 behaves the way I think the n1k2 should.
their stall/spin characteristics should be swapped.

f6f5 in AH is SEVERELY treacherous. the real one was not.

n1k2 in AH is a teddy bear, it should be a squeak  


ask me about the p38 if you want an earful about "how it should be"  

[fd ski]

hehehe citabria... now if i only remembered how much money did i bet on you being back in 2 months..  


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

[Tac]

38 still needs its stalls and flaps fixed. But its a killer.

Now PORK that damn n1k, im fed up with it pulling bi-plane manouvers at f-16 speeds.

[gatt]

Ah the old times, when we talked about UFO Nikis and dweeb cannon-ships. I miss them  

[StSanta]

Such a light plane with such a big engine should produce wicked torque.

Wouldn't this be even worse when the N1K does it famous "hang by the prop and spraying" stuff, seeing how there's no real wind over the wings helping with keeping it flying straight?

Add this and the N1K's will begin dying horribly, being unable to go HO on a rope a dope  .

As it is now it's quite dangerous to rope a dope a N1K - it keeps its nose pointing at you forever, then gets around and into a dive very quickly and under full control.



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Baron Claus "StSanta" Von Ribbentroppen
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"You filthy piece of distended rectum! DIE allierte schweinhund!"

[Major Tom]

If I remember correctly the first test flight of the N1K2-J took place on the 31st of December.  It had better landing gear than the N1K1-J (though still a bit weak) and both aircraft shared the same wonderfully robust and reliable engine.

Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].
-Saburo Sakai commenting on the Shindin-kai

If the N1K2-J did indeed make its maiden flight just slightly before 1945, maybe it should be perked and supplemented with a non-perk N1K1-J.  A heavier aircraft (by 500lb), and generally less maneuverable with more violent departure characteristics.

I agree that the niki also need to be a little bit more of a "bucking bronco."

[SOB]

     

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Whats up with our Niki FM? Cmon u cheereaders lets see ur usual BS dance!        

Heh, BS dance eh?  I was thinking the same thing about you and other NikiWhiners™ like you      

Is there a problem with the current Niki FM?  I don't know, and from what I've seen posted, neither does anyone else.  The only productive thing I've seen posted about the Niki good or bad is by Jigster about it's use of automatic combat flaps and the lack of them on AH's model.

Here are facts about the Niki as presented in 3 books that I've got with information on 'em.  I don't claim that any of it is reliable, and I don't claim the Niki in AH conforms to these number or not.  Nor do I care...if it's broken, HTC will fix it.  There's a claim from Grunny that Pyro said there was some sort of problem with climb rates, but I don't remember seeing a link to that post...please correct me with a link if I'm wrong.

Here's the data, for what it's worth (I know it's not as clear cut and decisive as one WWII pilot's opinion of the aircraft, but I suppose it will have to do since that's what those crazy bastards at HTC tend to rely on):

DIMENSIONS
Book One¹: Length-30ft 7-29/32in (9.345m);  Winspan-39ft 4-7/16in (12m);  Height-12ft 11-29/32in (3.96m);  Wing Area-252.951sq ft (23.5sq m)
Book Two²: Length-30ft 8-1/4in (9.35m);  Wingspan-39ft 3-1/4in (11.97m);  Height-13ft (3.96m)
Book Three³: Length-30ft 8in (9.33m);  Wingspan-39ft 4.5in (12.00m);  Height-13ft 0in (3.96m)

WEIGHTS
Book One: Empty-5,858lb (2,657kg);  Loaded 8,818lb (4000kg);  Maximum 10,714lb (4,860kg);  Wing Loading 34.9lb/sq ft (170.2kg/sq m);  Power Loading 4.4lb/hp (2kg/hp)
Book Two: Empty-6,299lb (2,657kg);  Max Loaded-10,714lb (4,860kg)
Book Three: Empty-5,858lb (2,657kg); Max T/O-10,714lb (4,860kg)

PERFORMANCE
Book One: Max Speed-369mph @ 18,375ft (321kt @ 5,600m); Cruising Speed-230mph @ 9,845ft (200kt @ 3,000m); Climb To-19,685ft (6,000kt)-in-7min 22sec; Service Ceiling-35,300ft (10,760m); Range normal-1,066 st miles (926naut miles) max-1,488 st miles (1,293naut miles)
Book Two: Max Speed-369mph (594km/h); Initial Climb-3,300ft/min (1,000m/min); Range-1,069mi (1,720km)
Book Three: Max Speed-369mph (594kmh); Range-1,488mi (2,395km) w/external tanks

ENGINE
One Nakajima NK9H Homare 21 18-cylinder Air-cooled radial [driving a 4-blade metal propeller¹]
Book One: hp @T/O-1,990 @5,740ft(1,750m)-1,825 @20,015ft(6,100m)-1,625
Book Two: 1,990hp
Book Three: 1,990hp (1,484kW)

ARMAMENTS
Book One: Four wing-mounted 20mm Type 99 Model 2 cannon; Two 250kg (551lb) bombs
Book Two: Four 20mm in pairs inside wing; Two 250kg (551lb) bombs underwing or six rockets under fuselage (book one specifies that the (6)rockets were only available in an "experimental installation on some N1K1-J" with one 250kg bomb)
Book Three: Four 20mm cannon in wings; Four 250kg (551lb) bombs

Book One Random Facts
-First Flight on December 31, 1943, handed over to the navy in April 1944
-Total Produced by all factories, about 415 not including 8 prototypes (one factory's numbers include N1K2-K production with N1K2-J)(book also states that only a limited number of N1K2-Ks were made, which were modified N1K2-J with a second seat added)

Book Two Random Facts
-First flight on April 3, 1944. (presumably first flight by the Navy)
-...encountered on all fronts from May 1944.
-Kawanishi delivered 406 N1K2-J

Book Three Random Facts
-First flight on December 31, 1943.
-"Deliveries of aircraft to the frontline commenced in July 1944"
-"...428 had been built by VJ-Day"

A couple of common themes...
-The N1K2 was an outstanding fighter that could hold it's own with the best Allied Fighter aircraft.
-It's engine was unreliable.


Well, there's my whining cheerleading BS.  Now please continue your intellectual discussion of the UFo...err, I mean N1K2-J.


SOB

¹ From the book "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Renè J Francillon (ISBN#0-87021-313-X)
² From the book "Fighting Aircraft of World War II" by Bill Gunston (ISBN#1-84065-092-3)
³ From the book "Jane's Pocket Guide, Fighters of World War II" by Tony Holmes (ISBN#0-00-472206-X)


[This message has been edited by SOB (edited 03-25-2001).]

[funked]

1.  Sakai was a Zeke pilot.  N1K is a higher wingloaded aircraft.  They Navy pilots said the same kind of things about the Zeke when they had to transition from their previous, even more lightly wingloaded aircraft (A5M)
2.  Consider the average level of IJNAAF pilot training when the N1K was introduced.  It was pretty low due to almost complete attrition of pre-war pilots by that point.

[Vladd]

 

Originally posted by Major Tom:
Take that idiot [Minoru] Genda. He could barely fly, but he jumped up and down about the Shiden-kai ["George"], so everybody else pretended to like it, too. That plane was a piece of crap, put together by a third-rate firm [Kawanishi].
-Saburo Sakai commenting on the Shindin-kai

Maybe Sakai was talking here about very poor build quality leading to the a/c hardly ever working properly; rather than it's flight characteristics as such. Treacherous perhaps, but it should be a dangerous opponent when it works.
 
Yet OTOH I certainly wouldn't complain if the N1k became harder to fly. Alternatively, having the game simulate random failures on the a/c at regular intervals would reduce it's popularity a fair bit I think    

Vladd


[This message has been edited by Vladd (edited 03-25-2001).]