Author Topic: Tale of the Gun  (Read 1848 times)

Offline Getback

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Tale of the Gun
« on: December 03, 2009, 07:03:03 AM »
Was watching this show last night about the Japanese firearms. Mostly the experts didn't think the Japanese firearms were all that great. One commentator said about the Type 96 machine gun, "The strong wooden handle allowed the 20lb weapon to be easily carried away by the allies as souvenirs.  :rofl :rofl :rofl

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Offline Maverick

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 12:42:58 PM »
They may not have been up to our standards or even the standards of the European countries but they got the job done. Read about the Pac War battles or ask a Vet about their effectiveness.
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 02:58:32 PM »
They may not have been up to our standards or even the standards of the European countries but they got the job done. Read about the Pac War battles or ask a Vet about their effectiveness.

Actually they didn't get the job done. Most of their rifles had magazine to firing chamber bullet transfer troubles often resulting in a jammed bolt. I saw the show and the examples that were fired were maintained to their optimum and they still had trouble, their pistols were even worse. The show even eluded that most Japanese officers had purchased German sidearms rather then use their own. Their machine guns had extremely slow rates of fire especially the gun called by the allies "The Wooddonut" coined that name because it fired at a rate a common wooddonut pecks a tree trunk. The stupid ammo clips that were used needed gobs of grease smeared over them to keep the thing firing properly. Then there was the personal ammo storage containers that were not weather proof resulting in periodic personal ammo unusable. Now were there US soldiers killed ? Of course, however it would have been far worse if their weapons were even average.

Of all the "Tale of the Gun" episodes the Japanese by far had the worst small firearms of any country involved in WW2.

Offline Jappa52

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 03:17:19 PM »
Actually they didn't get the job done.

My grandfather might have something to say about that
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Offline Getback

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 03:24:46 PM »
They had one pistol that you could press the side of it and it would fire. It's a keepsake just because it is so awful. Many of the guns had too many useless gadgets on them and way too many parts.

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Offline PFactorDave

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 03:34:34 PM »
The rifles had a dust cover around the bolt that rattled noisily, many Japanese soldiers opted to remove it and risk the jams caused by mud etc getting into the mechanism.  A friend of mine has one of the rifles, his grandfather "liberated" it during the war.  I can confirm that the dust covers do make a lot of noise.

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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 03:50:04 PM »
My grandfather might have something to say about that



Well he might I wasn't there but facts are facts and the fact is their guns were subpar in comparison to the rest of world. What made it bad for foot soldiers that fought in the PTO was constant beach landings. Even subpar weapons turned these landings into killing zones. Imagine if the soldiers in the ETO had one beach landing after the other like they did in the pacific. I'm sure that after the Normandy landing the Americans would not have tried another beach landing if that was what was needed. The elements was another factor in the PTO that effected the troops. Most if not all eventually suffered form malaria. It was hot and humid as well. My father in law was in the pacific and he has malaria. Also having to exterminate the enemy out of caves was a high risk factor that had little to do with the enemies firearms capabilities. So danger and death due to situation like these had more to do with soldier attrition then the reliability of the enemies weapons.

Offline Jappa52

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 03:54:09 PM »
Even subpar weapons turned these landings into killing zones.

hmmmm
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Offline gyrene81

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 04:08:42 PM »
Ok so these p.o.s. weapons the Japs carried during the war managed to be far superior to anything the Chinese could bring to battle and they managed to over power any resistance that used superior weapons during their "beach assaults" throughout the S. Pacific when they started the war...so I wonder what killed so many U.S. personnel...they didn't have heavy armor, close air support tactics weren't well developed...yet somehow the Japanese infantry managed to kill a lot of people with those crappy little guns.

Next thing someone will try to tell us is the Kar98 had an effective range of only 100 yards and couldn't penetrate an aluminum can at 300 yards...  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl
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Offline BigPlay

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 04:37:05 PM »
Ok so these p.o.s. weapons the Japs carried during the war managed to be far superior to anything the Chinese could bring to battle and they managed to over power any resistance that used superior weapons during their "beach assaults" throughout the S. Pacific when they started the war...so I wonder what killed so many U.S. personnel...they didn't have heavy armor, close air support tactics weren't well developed...yet somehow the Japanese infantry managed to kill a lot of people with those crappy little guns.

Next thing someone will try to tell us is the Kar98 had an effective range of only 100 yards and couldn't penetrate an aluminum can at 300 yards...  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl  :rofl

You need to read a few books before commenting on the Chinese ability to fight the Japanese on equal ground. China in 1937 was still a deeply divided country, and the KMT government could not rely on all its nominal forces equally. Rebellions and other disloyalties by various regional military commanders throughout the 1930s had made Chiang Kai-shek very suspicious of a large part of his forces. The most loyal and therefore best-trained and equipped troops were aproximately 380,000 men of Chiang Kai-shek's own pre-1934 army, most of whom had been trained by German instructors. They were commanded by graduates of the Whampoa Military Academy in Canton, which Chiang had himself commanded in 1924, creating an educated and politically reliable officer corps for the KMT army.
Another 520,000-odd men belonged to formations that were traditionally loyal to Chiang, though not of his own creation. Together with this hard core, these gave him a strength of 900,000 men that the government could rely upon. Beyond these armies there existed another class of so-called 'semi-autonomous provincial troops' that could sometimes be mobilized in the KMT government's interest, totalling perhaps another 300,000 men divided between the provinces of Suiyuan, Shansi and Shangtung in the north, and Kwangtung in the south-east.
The rest of the Nationalist army was made up of troops led by commanders who, while having no real loyalty to Chiang Kai-shek, were willing to fight alongside him against the common enemy, Japan. The fighting quality of these troops of questionable loyalty varied from very good to extremely poor. For instance, the 80,000 soldiers and 90,000 militia of the far southern province of Kwangsi were well-led, equipped and disciplined, while the 250,000 soldiers of Szechuan in the south-west were described as the worst-trained and equipped, most undisciplined and disloyal of all Chinese Nationalist troops.
Eroded by casualties - particularly among the trained pre-1937 officer corps - and by poverty of resources, most of these formations were under strength, badly fed, badly cared for, badly clothed and equipped, and badly led, with a combat value comparable to that of the marauding peasants levies of an earlier century. Historically, China's brutal military culture had given the peasant soldier no reward for victory beyond the opportunity to pillage, and no real emotional stake in any cause beyond his own immediate unit. Caution and cunning were admired, self-respect did not depend upon initiative and dash in the attack or endurance in defence. Unless succes came quickly they tended to fall back; on the other hand, even after a headlong retreat in the face of the enemy the long-suffering peasant soldiers could sometimes be brought back to their duty after a short respite.

There is more to defending against a beach landing then small arms fire. Have you considered artillery, mortars. It was said that during the Normandy landings that the majority of deaths along the beach were done by these 2 .
rofl all you want, your teachers must have. As stated, facts are facts and people who have way more knowledge about Japanese small arms then both of us consider the Japanese small arms to be substandard.

Offline BigPlay

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2009, 04:39:51 PM »
I wonder what killed so many U.S. personnel...they didn't have heavy armor, close air support tactics weren't well developed...yet somehow the Japanese infantry managed to kill a lot of people with those crappy little guns.

Neither did the Germans on D-Day. I believe 2 planes made it up and didn't stay around long. There also was not hvy armor there.

Offline branch37

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2009, 04:44:46 PM »


 "I'm sure that after the Normandy landing the Americans would not have tried another beach landing if that was what was needed."


We did do another beach landing.  Operation Dragoon i think, landed on the beaches of southern France a month or two after the Normandy landings.

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Offline jay

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2009, 04:52:21 PM »
the ariska (or however you spell it) was made of a very hard wood and made a very good club lol  :noid
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Offline Soulyss

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2009, 05:04:01 PM »
I have a copy of Bergerud's "Touched with Fire" sitting here and he examines the weapons used by the various combatants in the south Pacific  and his comments about the Japanese Arisaka Model 38 which was the most common basic rifle encountered in that theater.  On paper it was in many ways inferior to either the Springfield, Enfield, or most certainly the Garrand carried by allied forces.  It fired a .25 calibre bullet, the rifle itself was very long and was also one of the more heavy rifles used in the war.   In the jungles in the South Pacific it took took a lot of these disadvantages and turned them around.  The ammunition made used a very good smokeless powder coupled with the small round the gun produced very little muzzle flash or smoke when fired.  In the jungle that was often all a soldier had to aim at.  

The round itself was also manufactured with rather wide tolerances which would cause the round to wobble during flight.  But again in the jungles this had a couple benefits, which caused the round to make an odd noise when it passed overhead or struck something nearby and made it hard to determine where the round had been fired from, secondly the wobble and a tendency for the round to break up on impact made for a very nasty wound.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 05:05:36 PM by Soulyss »
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Offline Simba

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Re: Tale of the Gun
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2009, 05:20:33 PM »
Agreed, Japanese infantry rifles and sidearms weren't up to the standards set by the west. Their tanks were lightweights too, designed purely for infantry support alone.

Reckon that's even more reason to respect the Japanese soldiers and marines who achieved so much with such weapons, eh?  :salute

:cool:

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