Author Topic: Some New Data Carts to chew on  (Read 3283 times)

Offline Guppy

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« Reply #105 on: January 08, 2002, 06:36:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Dwarf:


I was comparing range.  If I made out the numbers correctly, both carry 360 gallons of fuel and the P-38 actually has a slightly better radius of action.

Dwarf

The P-38J in the test has 300 gallons of fuel. Later models had a greater fuel capacity of 410 gallons.

Offline Badboy

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« Reply #106 on: January 08, 2002, 06:40:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Dwarf:
Although this wan't where I was headed when I started, I seem to have arrived at the idea that a new way of looking at climb and accel needs to be devised.

Nope, everything you need to know about climb and acceleration is expressed in the idea of specific access power, that's all a fighter pilots needs to make a comparison between the ability to accelerate or climb at any practical load factor.

 
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HoHun is absolutely correct when he says that current practice considers climb and accel to be the same problem.

Since the equations to prove it don't currently exist, it's rather hard to conclusively demonstrate that they are not.

The equations to prove it do exist, they are fairly easy to derive, and have been familiar to aero students for a very long time.

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Offline Widewing

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« Reply #107 on: January 08, 2002, 07:03:00 PM »
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
Dwarf,

Two quick things.

1. How does the P-38 compare well with F7F? The F7F is nearly 60MPH faster at sea level where there is no danger of compressabilty. I'm not sure if I understand what you are comapring?

2. I know the P-38 has a reputation for long range but when the Navy's range calculator is applied it is not nearly as impressive. 450 miles in combat range with no DT's. I know during the course of the war many changes were developed to run lean to get longer range. However this calculator gives a baseline for range for all A/C with out leaning out the mixture. I would just expect more based on reputation.

Also in regard to the Yamamoto mission. I wouldn't put to much stock in "It was the only A/C for the Job". More decisions where based on interservice rivalies and politics than on what was the best for the Job.

A couple of points, if I may?

Grumman's F7F was a "hot ship". Very fast, tremendous climb rate and a punch only matched by the P-61. However, it was also a much more demanding aircraft to fly than the P-38. Corky Meyer has described the Tigercat's power-on stall characteristics as, "adventuresome". Likewise, minimum single engine control speed was notably higher. Another point made by Corky was the loss of rudder control a low speeds, whereas the P-38 had, essentially, blown rudders. For the F7F, this became even more critical should one engine need to be shut down. Not so for the P-38. This is exemplified by the large increase in rudder area on the F7F-3. Outward visibility was better for the Lightning as well. One must remember that the F7F had been in development for a very long time, dating back to the XF5F. One of the generally overlooked aircraft of the immediate pre-war period was the Grumman XP-50. If Grumman's performance numbers are to believed, this beauty was capable of 424 mph, and offered a climb rate in excess of 4,000 fpm. Bob Hall was forced to bail out of the prototype after a Turbocharger exploded, doing such damage as to make the aircraft unsafe to land. After the loss of the only existing example, the USAAC pursued another Grumman twin, the XP-65. This, however, was never built. Eventually, the Navy was to benefit from all the data gathered from the XF5F-1, XP-50 and XP-65, incorporating it into the G-51, or XF7F-1. Indeed, the XP-65 was nothing more than a USAAF spec version of the XF7F-1. Like the XF6F-1, both the XP-65 and XF7F-1 were initially intended to use the Wright R-2600 engine. Shortly after the USAAF cancelled their version, Grumman switched to the R-2800.

One test pilot described the Tigercat's performance as being "like a pair of Bearcats bolted together at the wing root." Not faint praise.

As to the P-38 being the only fighter in the South Pacific that could have pulled off the Yamamoto intercept, what else was there? Nothing. Think of the challenge while remembering that this was an 800+ mile overwater flight, with the outbound leg being flown at wave-top height. Then, assuming that they arrived exactly on time (three or four minutes on either side would have resulted in missing Yamamoto's flight), they had to fight off escorts and any Japanese aircraft taking off, shoot down both G4Ms (Bettys) and then fly all the way back. These were not P-38J of L fighters with the extra 110 gallons of fuel in the leading edge tanks. These were old G models which used unbaffled external tanks. Assuming these P-38s took off with a full fuel load, excluding 60 gallons for warm-up and takeoff, the best range they could expect was 580 miles. Now, figure on using Military power for 30 minutes. This consumes as much as 167 gallons. In other words, they would have to fly 400+ miles each way on just 403 gallons. A check of the P-38 manual (for the P-38H) reveals that these pilots could expect to get 1.02 miles per gallon of fuel burned. This means that the best they could hope for was enough gas to fly 412 miles each way with 30 minutes of combat. That was really cutting it close.

Now, on paper, the F4F-3 appears to have a maximum range allowing them to fly out far enough. However, in practice, the Wildcat had an operational radius of no more than 300 miles, 500 with external tanks. Not good enough. Furthermore, the Wildcat lacked the speed to evade the escorts or to overtake the Bettys quickly, should they find themselves more than a few miles behind.

No, there was no other type in theater that could have performed the Yamamoto mission.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

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Offline wells

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« Reply #108 on: January 08, 2002, 08:08:00 PM »
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as for number of blades not mattering thats not true. a single blade propeller would be the most efficient actually -- as number of blades is increased efficiency decreases. of course you may able to be absorb more power, but efficiency is still lower.

Yes, a single blade is more efficient, but only because you can use a larger diameter.  As you add blades, the diameter has to decrease for the same power.  That's why efficiency is lower with multiple blades.

 
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also wells uhmm those equations you have up there dont work. they always equal unity.

Umm, no they don't.  They were cut and pasted from my spreadsheet that gave the graph I posted.

 
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other things matter too, like design lift coefficient of the blades, taper ratrio of the blades and millions of otehr things.

Well, now you're trying to calculate losses to an optimum propeller, which I admit is difficult.  But, given the performance of the plane from flight tests, as in this case, such losses can be determined without taking any of that stuff into consideration.

Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #109 on: January 08, 2002, 08:12:00 PM »
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Originally posted by Zigrat:
all in all tho these little algebraic equations we use have to be taken with a grain of salt. the stuff i am using now in my graduate work for analysis takes weeks to run on sun workstations and still makes assumptions. they are still valuable as estimation tools, but really cant be used for much more than that.

Amen, brother Zigrat!  Is there a Hallejulah for the brother?  ;)

I'm afraid we all have a tendency to fall in love with our equations.  Especially when they "prove" the point we wish to make.

But as Zigrat points out, they all make simplifying assumptions, and provide only estimates.  Sometimes questionable estimates.

Dwarf

Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #110 on: January 08, 2002, 09:41:00 PM »
wells -

Zigrat's post and my own prior results intriqued me, so I did 4 more tests of your equations.

v = 50 fps; e = 0.806, after applying your fudge factor, e = 0.6448
v = 100 fps; e = 0.116 and 0.0928
v = 150 fps; e = 0.986 and 0.789
v = 600 fps; e = 1.00005 and 0.8

I suspect that if I investigated further, I could pin down the exact point at which the equation stops oscillating and settles down.  As of now, it doesn't appear stable until some point between 100 fps and 150 fps.  At that point and for the entire rest of the speed range it appears to yield a result very close to unity.

Dwarf
[edit] Tests were done using your preferred density of .00237 slugs/ft^3, same 1000 hp engine and 10 ft prop.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Dwarf ]

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #111 on: January 09, 2002, 12:53:00 AM »
Hi Dwarf,

>HoHun is absolutely correct when he says that current practice considers climb and accel to be the same problem.

>Since the equations to prove it don't currently exist, it's rather hard to conclusively demonstrate that they are not.

The equations I posted above prove that climb and acceleration are directly and linearly linked.

The usefulness of the concept is demonstrated by the "energy compensating variometer" used by sailplane pilots - it effectively is a Ps indicator. Sailplane pilots couldn't afford to rely on flawed concepts :-)

>When considering the problem of climb, I believe we need something that accounts for the entry cost as well as the cost of maintenance.

You're asking for energy, not for power now. You could numerically sum up P over short time intervals (the frames in our film) to arrive at the desired solution. (Mathematically, you'd have to integrate.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #112 on: January 09, 2002, 02:26:00 AM »
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Originally posted by HoHun:
Hi Dwarf,

The equations I posted above prove that climb and acceleration are directly and linearly linked.

Prove is too strong a word in my book.  Your equations certainly say they are "directly and linearly linked".  However, like all currently existing equations, they contain simplifying assumptions that gloss over parts of the problem that have, so far, been opaque to analysis.

Probably the truest statement we could make is, "From the parts of the picture that have so far been revealed, it appears that the two problems are linked."

 
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The usefulness of the concept is demonstrated by the "energy compensating variometer" used by sailplane pilots - it effectively is a Ps indicator. Sailplane pilots couldn't afford to rely on flawed concepts :-)
...
You're asking for energy, not for power now. You could numerically sum up P over short time intervals (the frames in our film) to arrive at the desired solution. (Mathematically, you'd have to integrate.)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

The variometer part I can see.  Whether Ps is truly "energy compensating" is the question.

As you point out, climb is a problem that is only amenable to integration.  Acceleration is soluble with the Ps formula you have supplied.  That seems a significant difference to me.

Dwarf

Offline wells

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« Reply #113 on: January 09, 2002, 02:56:00 AM »
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wells -

v = 100 fps; e = 0.116 and 0.0928

I suggest you re-calculate that one.  There's no oscillating going on...it's a smooth curve .

Offline Dwarf

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« Reply #114 on: January 09, 2002, 04:16:00 AM »
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Originally posted by wells:


I suggest you re-calculate that one.  There's no oscillating going on...it's a smooth curve .

Right you are.  Forgot to do the sqrt for Y.

Corrected result: v = 100; e = .959 and .768

Dwarf

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #115 on: January 09, 2002, 09:36:00 AM »
Ok Gents,

While everybody is checking to see who has the biggest protractor. Riddle me this...

Why does the F6F-5 have a higher climb rate than the F4U?

F4U-1
HP=2250
Weight 12,000LBS
Top speed at sea level= 355MPH
1G stall speed @ gross weight = 100MPH
Wing Span 41FT
Wing area 314Sq FT

F6F-5
HP =2250
Weight= 12500LBS
Top speed @ sea level = 330MPH
1G stall speed @ gross weight= 90MPH
Wing Span = 42FT
Wing Area= 334Sq FT

Using these numbers the F6F should not be able to break 3,000FPM but somehow it reaches 20,000FT in 7.0 minutes with an initial sustained climb rate of almost 3500FPM.

BTW. If you look at the test reports of the F6F-5 vrs the A6M5, and FW190A5 and F4U-1D the F4U out climbed the Hellcat in both test. This is not the case in AH.

Offline Vermillion

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« Reply #116 on: January 09, 2002, 12:08:00 PM »
Hmmmm... I always thought it was an issue with the F4U-1, not the F6F-6.

It was my understanding it was a propellor efficency problem, that was later corrected on the F4U-4.

Just from memory tho  :)

Offline F4UDOA

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« Reply #117 on: January 09, 2002, 12:27:00 PM »
Heya Verm,

Your right on the Prop efficiency thing. It was with the F4U-1. The blade design was changed midrun to 6501A-0 while maintaining a three blade prop. This change to a paddle type prop is largely documented in the P-47 but nothing is said of the F4U change except in test report and the flight manual. This increased the climb of the F4U significantly.

My question to the engineer types is why the lack of acceleration in the F4U. At first I tried using the P-38 as a comparison but the twin engine makes the calculation come out wrong. So the F6F is a logical comparison because of weight, HP and wing area being so close. Power to weight ratio favors the F4U as well as Drag.

So why does the F6F climb/accelerate better than the F4U?

Offline HoHun

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« Reply #118 on: January 09, 2002, 02:05:00 PM »
Hi Dwarf,

>Prove is too strong a word in my book.

My equations are a formal proof in the true sense of the word.

The proof could be flawed, but the only way to disprove the direct connection of climb and acceleration is to do the math and find the flaw.

People with the formal education should appreciate that verbal arguments are entirely pointless now that we have a formal proof up there. I admit that for anyone without this formal education, I probably don't seem to make much sense :-) The point is: You don't even have a one in a billion chance to be right unless you find a flaw in either my assumptions or in my math.

So this is the point where you'd either have to accept the connection I proved, disprove it formally, or state that you believe I'm wrong whereupon we could both move on to further aspects or the performance comparison :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline wells

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« Reply #119 on: January 09, 2002, 02:14:00 PM »
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While everybody is checking to see who has the biggest protractor. Riddle me this...

Why does the F6F-5 have a higher climb rate than the F4U?

Maybe my protractor isn't big enough, but your chart says the F6f climbs at 3160 fpm initially.