Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[MrMeaty]

Thor what you really do fail to realize, is that you are not quoting experts. And as I said, I posted all the details to back up any claim I made, I have done it multiple times, you have done nothing of the sort, your one link said simply with out changing any thing else but cutting weight makes a plane perform better Well Duhhh, you have just completed you have just made it to kindergarten level of this discusion.

You do realize that there are more experts in this very thread then you have cited so far. Do you listen to yourself, I do this stuff for a living day in and day out, and you are trying to say your knowledge on the topic of physics and aerodynamics is above mine when you have not read 1 book, took one class, produce been able to produce one equation. You are not even a pilot. You have no frame of reference of TRW of airplanes to even claim you do. 

You have not preformed one real life hammer head, you have never pushed 3 neg g's, you have never rode the edge of black outs in real planes. You have never felt accelerated stalls and had dog fights in real war birds. All of the above I have done many many times.

As far as my response to you, I have cut you an extream amount of slack in the past. You continue to prove how you really are following in crumps foot steps. You continue to state completely false statements after multiple people PROV YOU WRONG, not disagree, but factually by mathematical logic and accepted physics prove you wrong. But yet you still keep claiming the same thing after you have been cornered.

You have dug yourself a huge hole, I am now curious if you will keep digging.

HiTech




HiTech

You sir just went up 1MILLOIN cool points for posting this....



MrMeaty

[thndregg]

You have dug yourself a huge hole, I am now curious if you will keep digging.

[Bronk]

Oh you gota check out the link Thorism is posting.

Crump got banned from THAT forum as well.

       

AFAIK Crumpp has never been banned from any other forum than this one.

bwahahahahaha

[Ack-Ack]

you see i state that the math is missing something and you come out with the same math. you refuse to address this issue in the real world but claim the math is absolutely true there.

where is your example, this argument is used by some to say that 38s and f4us and juggs and ponies all should out maneuver spits yaks 109s FWs when the vast majority of real world testing says the exact opposite.

Who said the P-38 should be able to out turn Spitfires, Yaks or Bf 109s?  Those of us that fly the P-38 have stated that using its strengths can allow one to gain an angle on an otherwise better turning plane.  Using vertical turns, I'm going to cut inside of the plane that is turning in the horizontal most of the time.  Pilot factor also plays a large part.


ack-ack

[Bronk]

who is crump? i never heard of him till this thread?

Crump was a luftwhiner extraordinaire. He would post multiple graphs, charts and tons of data to back up his claims.
IIRC
What he didn't tell you was it was he cherry picked the best data from multiple sources to back up said claim.  Example climb rate from one source, top speed from another... ect... ect...ect.

[Ack-Ack]

fine, post your f4u/38/jugg or pony pilot saying he has got it all over the 109/spit/yak/or FW in a maneuver fight like your compatriots have argued here ...

GuppyJr had posted in the thread about flaps an AAR report from a flight of low altitude P-38s that were jumped by Bf 109s while on a ground attack sortie.  The AAR clearly describes what you just asked to see.

ack-ack

[thorsim]

sgt pappy as educated by HTC and the cartoon experts here, getting squashed outside of cartoon land for echoing the same stuff i questioned when i entered this thread ...

i agree that thread was very amusing ...

Who said the P-38 should be able to out turn Spitfires, Yaks or Bf 109s?  Those of us that fly the P-38 have stated that using its strengths can allow one to gain an angle on an otherwise better turning plane.  Using vertical turns, I'm going to cut inside of the plane that is turning in the horizontal most of the time.  Pilot factor also plays a large part.
ack-ack

it was bosco and a f4u this time, much like st pappy on the other board ...

Here's what I think:

P38 wins with E, F4U wins with turning ability
P40 wins.
F4u Wins.
109 wins E, F4U turn
F4U
Ki84
F4U

[Ack-Ack]

Ah Crumpp, I think he's been banned from every BBS. He's not always right, but he was never wrong. Relation maybe?

He's not banned in the IL2 forums, but I think that's due to the location of his head on Oleg's lap.


ack-ack

[Kurtank]

thorsim. Shut the diddly up.


IN.

[thorsim]

GuppyJr had posted in the thread about flaps an AAR report from a flight of low altitude P-38s that were jumped by Bf 109s while on a ground attack sortie.  The AAR clearly describes what you just asked to see.

ack-ack

umm no and no

[Ack-Ack]

sgt pappy as educated by HTC and the cartoon experts here, getting squashed outside of cartoon land for echoing the same stuff i questioned when i entered this thread ...

i agree that thread was very amusing ...


it was bosco and a f4u this time, much like st pappy on the other board ...

In a low/stall speed turn fight, allowing the Corsair to use its flaps and far better low/stall speed performance and maneuverbility, yes the Corsair would have the edge.  Especially if the Corsair pilot is able to sucker the Bf 109 into right hand turns and low/stall speeds or better yet a rolling right handed scissors fight.  If the Corsair is fighting against a Bf 109f and initiates a rolling right handed scissors fight, the Bf 109 is going to be dead as its going to have a very tough time rolling to the right at low/stall speeds due to torque.  Corsair, while also fighting torque, isn't going to be as disadvantage as the Bf 109f in that maneuver. 

If the Bf 109 keeps the angle fight at medium to high speeds, then it will have the edge against the Corsair.  More so in the later model Bf 109s.  Again, pilot skill is a major factor.


ack-ack

[oakranger]

if i'm remembering correctly, he liked its handling a LOT. it rolled like a sunofasqueak. it climbed incredibly. it turned better than most think. its guns package was nice.
 i think he said he felt it was at least equal to his mustang, and that with equal pilot skills, the loser would be the one to make the first mistake.

don't take this as a shot against the mustangs....and don't take this as he feared nothing when he flew, as he did.

 i wish this guy was still with us, as he was a cool ole guy. it was amazing when he started talking, as there'd be about 20 of us gathered around him, including young kids.
 

Wow, that is great that you personally talked to him and he openly talked about is service in the P-51, epically on flying 190.  

Most people do not know this.  By 1944, German had at most 110 flying hours in training before going into combat.  By the time U.S. pilot was put into combat, he got up to 400 hours of training.   So i can imagine that most of the 190s he fought against had pilots that had vary little training and most likely still new.  It is hard to say what the out come would have been if German pilots had over 300 hours of training before put into combat.

[Ack-Ack]

umm no and no

You wanted to see a P-38 pilot's own words of out maneuvering Bf 109s.  The AAR that was posted by GuppyJr clearly described how a flight of low flying P-38s were jumped by a higher group of Bf 109s.  A maneuvering angles (turn) fight ensued, where the P-38s used their flaps to out maneuver the Bf 109s and come out the victors in that engagement.  One a side note, one of the P-38 pilots after the flight realized that he still had his 500 pound bombs, apparently the pylon shackles got jammed and the bombs never pickled.  Pretty fancy flying for a pilot, carrying two 500 pound bombs and able to out maneuver your attackers.  It's also worth noting that this particular P-38 unit had transitioned to the P-38 just a couple of months prior to this fight.  Again, it goes without saying, pilot skill was probably the over riding factor.


ack-ack

[thorsim]

nope sorry re-read both threads to review what i said, and asked for ...

You wanted to see a P-38 pilot's own words of out maneuvering Bf 109s.  The AAR that was posted by GuppyJr clearly described how a flight of low flying P-38s were jumped by a higher group of Bf 109s.  A maneuvering angles (turn) fight ensued, where the P-38s used their flaps to out maneuver the Bf 109s and come out the victors in that engagement.  One a side note, one of the P-38 pilots after the flight realized that he still had his 500 pound bombs, apparently the pylon shackles got jammed and the bombs never pickled.  Pretty fancy flying for a pilot, carrying two 500 pound bombs and able to out maneuver your attackers.  It's also worth noting that this particular P-38 unit had transitioned to the P-38 just a couple of months prior to this fight.  Again, it goes without saying, pilot skill was probably the over riding factor.


ack-ack

[Kurtank]

Being loud doesn't make an bellybutton seem any smarter.

As before; IN