Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)

[HellFire]

   
   
Plane vs Plane Tactics (Matchups)


Greetings:

The purpose of this query is specific to individual planes fighting AGAINST the F4U-1A, not talking about furballs, just how each plane listed below fares against the hog, man to man, individually:

   F4U vs P38: found this to be a very iffy situation, the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.

   F4U vs P40?
   F4U vs spit9 or spit16?
   F4U vs BF109s?
   F4U vs FW 190D?
   F4U vs Ki84
   F4U vs P51

Corsair experts are invited to add their opinions, experiences & skills,
your treatises PLUS FILMS are requested, in fact, encouraged.  Thx .
   

"In life there is certain death, and between life and death
  there is a journey, hence in truth nothing is lost in death."

[Enker]

The P-40's best bet would be to get the fight to a Co-E situation, then engage WEP and use the superior climbrate to succeed. The turn rate of the P-40 when fast and with a notch of flaps is surprisingly good however, and would give the F4U a run for its money, given the P-40 pilot can capitalize on its advantages. The F4U does have a slower stall speed though. We are talking about the P-40E right? If it were the B model, I would say hands down the F4U as a victor. Even so, it could go either way.


Ugh, how am I supposed to pick amongst my two favorite planes? It's like picking the favorite child!

[Saxman]

The F4U-1A (that's specifically what variant he's asking) outclimbs both P-40s at all altitudes, with only a narrow band where the P-40E comes close.

[Enker]

I guess I should use WEP in the F4U more often then.

I guess in the vs. P-40 scenario, it depends mainly on how well the pilots know their respective planes, and how well they push their planes.

[HighGTrn]

I think the F4 vs. pony match up with equal pilots and equal E states is gonna go to the F4 every time.  There is no comparison.  If the HOG doesn't win the fight, its because the pony chooses to extend which he will do after a couple of turns.  I would think a better match up against the F4 would be a P-38 with everything else equal.

[morfiend]

 Against the spits,84 and 109's the corsair had better keep an E advantage,if the fight slows down too much anyone of these planes just need to take the fight nose up and the corsair will begin to struggle.

 This is with equal pilots flying.

 Of course as always YMMV.

   

[humble]

I think the F4 vs. pony match up with equal pilots and equal E states is gonna go to the F4 every time.  There is no comparison.  If the HOG doesn't win the fight, its because the pony chooses to extend which he will do after a couple of turns.  I would think a better match up against the F4 would be a P-38 with everything else equal.

Actually a P-51 should never lose a fight to any hog outside of a -4 when starting on an even footing. The major problem is patience since the pony (like the late 109's) has to secure the perch and drive the hog down. This is the exact opposite of the p-40, spit, Ki-84 etc where the roles are reversed. Due to its relatively poor sustained climb and acceleration the ponies margin of error is somewhat small so the "average" pony driver falls readily to an average hog driver but given excellent pilots in both the hog is just another target for a top end 51 jockey...

[Saxman]

Actually a P-51 should never lose a fight to any hog outside of a -4 when starting on an even footing.

Even footing? Not the hell likely. Diving down with a 10k altitude advantage maybe.

[humble]

It is what it is, the pony is faster and has a better rate of climb across just about the entire flight envelope. As a general rule the pony is a bit harder to learn and less versatile so the average pony driver is somewhat less skilled then someone who flies the hog on a regular basis. Can a good hog driver beat a good pony driver...or course. As a general rule however the pony will win 75% or more of the time...just that simple. I posted a clip way back of skat and I, just about as solid as you can drive a hog and the reality is I lose that fight most of the time.

[Saxman]

The P-51 doesn't have such a dominiant advantage in sustained climb that it's going to account for anything. As has been said many times, sustained climb means very little. The F4U can and will hang with a P-51 during the initial zoom with a Co-E start. Watched plenty of Ponies slowly pulling away on me level try to climb out and I run right up their six.

And you're saying Co-E start. This means both aircraft are entering the encounter at the same airspeed. The P-51 is faster, but does NOT out-accelerate the 1A, D or C over the first 250-300mph, and above that speed has an advantage of only about a tenth of a second. Unless the P-51 already has a sizeable lead with a Co-E start he's not going to get away.

Any sort of maneuvering fight under Co-E start ends with a dead P-51.

[humble]

Actually any "co-E" fight between a truly good pony driver and a hog (non -4) ends one of three ways. The hog converts on a low % snapshot, they both fly home or the pony flies home. The real issue here is the relative lack of top end pony drivers and the tremendous advantages the F4U enjoys in the nature of game play here. This fosters the misconception that the hog (which I love) is somehow dominant to the pony (which it's not). The typical encounter in the game normally is either just below or over the cloud layer (nominally we'll say at 15.5k)...right in the heart of the F4U's flight envelope. This creates a scenario where the 51 is actually severely limited initially and the game culture can often generate significant peer pressure. The reality is that the hog has no ability to force a fight at any time and the P-51 can but must be prudent and solidify a + E state. the 2nd misconception at work is the simple reality that very few people who fly the pony understand it at all. The average pony driver seems to operate under the misconception that he should take this fight up. The reality is that he needs to drive the fight down to the pony's sweet spot. At altitudes under 10k the pony has significant advantages. The reality is that not many pony drivers have the low speed high AoA touch required in the initial part of the encounter or a true understanding of exactly what fight they need to fly initially vs a well handled hog. The combination of longitudinal instability, flaps and exceptional control surface authority give the average hog driver a tremendous initial advantage which tend to obscure the ponies actual advantages. The only real question that a "pony ace" has vs any non -4 hog is if he want's to expend the effort given the reality that the hog (especially a well handled one) is a difficult target to put down. The reality is that the 3 planes that scream "uber stick" are the F4U, 109 & P-47 so many times a good pony driver will size up the encounter and simply move on....

[Saxman]

Now you're saying two different things. Initially you're specifically saying, in no uncertain terms, that the P-51 will own the F4U when starting on EVEN FOOTING. This implies Co-E and Alt. However then you say that the Mustang needs to be wary and gain a + E state. That right away indicates that the P-51 is on borrowed time if it tries to press a fight against an F4U under equal starting conditions. The P-51 does NOT have the huge advantages in climb (2k or more fpm) and acceleration (on the order of a couple seconds) over the F4U that the Spixteen does, so its capability of generating that + E state when entering the engagement from neutral starting conditions is greatly limited.

And this:

The hog converts on a low % snapshot, they both fly home or the pony flies home.

is vague to the point of describing ANY two aircraft 1v1, regardless of the distribution of the outcomes.

[TequilaChaser]

it depends mainly on how well the pilots know their respective planes, and how well they push their planes.

this sums it up completely............. for all the matchups........

1st one to foul up and make a mistake......is the 1st one back in the tower, most times.....

also Co-E does not determine same alt and same speed.........unless it is specifically pointed out that both opponents are at the same alt and speed like if the 2 were in a Duel! , which is not the case in this discussion....

example: P51D is at 10K alt and doing 225 IAS  vs F4U-1A  which is at 8K alt and doing 340 IAS = Co-E  ( the numbers for speed and alt is just for illustration purposes only )



F4U vs P38:  the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs P40? the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs spit9 or spit16? the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs BF109s? the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs FW 190D? the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs Ki84 the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.
F4U vs P51 the win could go either way, a difficult proposition, pilot skill a determining factor.

[BnZs]

Translation: The Pony can succeed as an E-fighter against the Hog, or run away home if it likes. The Pony can build an E-advantage over the Hog eventually. But it takes a day and a half, so really the Pony is better off avoiding the Hog and looking for something you already have an E-advantage or maneuver parity with before his ~25 minutes of fuel runs out. 

[humble]

No what I'm saying is that a F4U is nothing but a target. It has no ability to press home a fight vs a P51 at any alt assuming both planes enter icon range at full military power sustained speed co-alt. that being said the P51 driver has to fly a very technically correct fight, especially at normal engagement altitudes here in AH. As a general rule a very low % of pony drivers (even those proficient in other planes) can actually fly the pony to its strengths vs other planes. Combine this with the tremendous versatility of the F4U and most of time a very high % of P51 drivers make mistakes in both judgement and technique that allow the hog to win. An F4U facing a well flown P51 is entirely defensive from the start and more then likely will never even get a reasonable shot window unless he can force a set of cascading errors or has exceptional plane handling skills and anticipation specific to the actual shot windows and outstanding gunnery. The nature of the plane attracts exactly this type of pilot so the reality is that many dedicated hog drivers have these skills in some measure and forces the pony to maintain a very high standard of technical proficiency vs a good F4U pilot. This creates a scenario where many of the good P51 pilots will joust a bit with a typical 15k hog to determine pilot skill but not seriously engage if they perceive the other pilot to be skilled unless they are reasonably sure that they have time to prosecute the fight correctly.

The simple reality is that the type of flying required to dispatch a hog with a pony isn't all that much fun and takes time and discipline....hence all the whining on 200 when it happens. The P51 is a superior E fighter to the F4U and when flown entirely in that discipline it will dominate the fight in the sense that it will not ever lose control of the encounter. However the F4U has an exceptionally big "phone booth" and can draw many pilots into what is in fact an oblique angles fight where the hog excels. In the end the P51 driver who feels compelled to "dogfight" the hog will ultimately lose while the pony driver who see's nothing but a potential target will almost always win (or fly away). Since most P51 drivers are at a loss on actually E fighting while most F4U drivers develop those skills vs other planes the "average" F4U driver is much better equipped for this fight by both skill set and I think prior disposition. Meanwhile the best pony drivers tend to be immune to being drawn into a "fair fight" anymore then a butcher wants to go a few rounds with a cow (or a hog ). So in the end this is the old Clint Eastwood "when a man with a pistol meets a man with a rifle..." deal.