Author Topic: the not so studly Mustang  (Read 4405 times)

funked

  • Guest
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #105 on: November 17, 1999, 04:57:00 AM »
I still don't get it.  If you count 8th, 9th, 12th, 15th AF, RAF, RCAF, there were way more Allied planes flying over Europe than Kraut planes.

I'm well aware that the early users of Merlin P-51's kicked ass, but they were hardly the only units shooting down Luftwaffles.

Another thing - the 8th AF might have stayed up high (alt monkeys   ), but there was a lot of Allied ground pounding going on in the spring.  The Jagdwaffe was quite busy down low as well!

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-17-1999).]

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #106 on: November 17, 1999, 07:49:00 AM »
Juzz. Because test flights were held under unbelievably stingent conditions. The aircraft had all been assemebled with the utmost in care. the preflight and fueling were done with extreme attention to detail.
 And yet not all test pilots escaped unharmed now did they?
 Then when the plane got into the field with the hectic combat conditions combined with the typical drop in quality control due to mass productions the accidents occured at a phenomenal rate.
 Everything from a drop in quality control,
fuels being mixed accidently during refuleing, mechanical error causing fuel to mix accidently on the flight line at launch or in flight, to the not uncommon pilot error in dropping the undercarriage too soon causing it to bounce up and rupture the craft.
 It was a flying butane lighter that was not a very safe plane to fly.  But in war what is one to do???
 
(side note: Last night there was a lecture at the New England Air Museum in Hartford, Connecticut that would have been a good place to have been able to have a coffee and discuss all of this face to face at.  
"Advanced, Unusual, Experimental & Conceptual German Aircraft, 1936-1945 by Bruno L. Cavallo")
 http://www.neam.org/eventcon.htm#lecture

-Westy


Offline fats

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 210
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #107 on: November 17, 1999, 09:05:00 AM »
SnakeEyes:

By your theory the only planes facing LW were the P-51s, and that the P-38/P-47 squads not yet converted were totally _not_ flying and hence not enounctering and shooting down any LW planes.

Oh and that the LW also ignored the Russians and Brittish. Here're the strengths of serviceable planes in the Jagdgeschwader in Luftflotten 3 and Luftflotten Reich as of 31 May 1944, the two Luftflotten mainly responsible for intercepting bomber formations coming from North Sea at that time. Luftflotten 3 consists of the whole of France and the lower countries ( hmm not sure about the english term, the ones partially below sea level Holland and such ) and Luftflotten Reich was Germany, Denmark and parts of Germany's eastern neighbours.

Luftflotten 3
Jagdgeschwader 2 Fw 190 44

Jagdgeschwader 26 Fw 190 50
Jagdgeschwader 26 Bf 109 21


Luftflotten Reich
Jagdgeschwader 1 Fw 190 37
Jagdgeschwader 1 Bf 109 21

Jagdgeschwader 3 Bf 109 43
Jagdgeschwader 3 Fw 190 1

Jagdgeschwader 5 Bf 109 72

Jagdgeschwader 11 Bf 109 20
Jagdgeschwader 11 Fw 190 35

Jagdgeschwader 27 Bf 109 86

Jagdgeschwader 53 Bf 109 14

Jagdgeschwader 54 Fw 190 8

Jagdgeschwader 300 Bf 109 44
Jagdgeschwader 300 Fw 190 24

Jagdgeschwader 301 <edit>Bf 109</edit> 21

Jagdgeschwader 302 <edit>Bf 109</edit> 27<edit> 11 is the correct figure</edit>

Jagdgeschwader 400 Me 163 0
----------------------------
total                  667

At this point the Luftwaffe had more ( ? ) day fighters than ever before, albeit not all fell into the areas of these Luftflotten, nor were all of the day fighters of these Luftflotten available to intercept every raid because the area was rather large. Luftwaffe had more fighters available less than month before the end of the war. If you are interested in actual numbers of the Luftwaffe, there're 10-day reports available from museums. The above is grabbed quickly from 'Luftwaffe Data Book' which uses such reports.

<edit>
Yes I left out Nacht-, Kampf-, Schlacht-, Schnellkampf- and Zerstorergeschwader operating such planes like Bf 110, Me 410, Ju 88 and so on. Hmm perhaps I should have included the Zerstorergeschwader.
</edit>


//fats

[This message has been edited by fats (edited 11-17-1999).]

[This message has been edited by fats (edited 11-18-1999).]

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #108 on: November 17, 1999, 09:37:00 AM »

It is my impression that the lions share of Axis aircraft shot down went to the Allied bomber gunners. Sure the buffs took horrendous losses but they also exacted a heavy HEAVY toll on the intercepting enemy fighters.
 Add in all the aircraft shot down by the long range escorts and therein lies the reason for the LW was damaged beyond almost all repair.

--Westy
 

Offline SnakeEyes

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #109 on: November 17, 1999, 09:42:00 AM »
Remember, the P38s were called ineffective by Galland.   And only 2 groups were "armed" with them.  With regard to the P47s, you also have to remember that they couldn't transit to Berlin, or deep into Germany for that matter.

The maximum complement of an 8th AF Fighter Group was 36 aircraft.  Assuming 75% strength for any given mission, that's 27 aircraft.  If all 5 FGs equipped with Stangs were sent on a given mission, that's 135 aircraft.

The difference isn't the number of aircraft available... the difference is that, unlike 1943 where the Luftwaffe could attack the buffs for hours uncontested, now they had to contend with escort that could reach Berlin and back in an aircraft that had better performance at alt than either the 109 or the 190.  The 4th Fighter Group alone scored about 350+ kills from January to May.

Finally, yes, definitely include the 110s... there were plenty of those downed in early 1944... and even targets take an expenditure in time and alt.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

weretiger

  • Guest
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #110 on: November 17, 1999, 01:06:00 PM »
hello
I think this is an interesting thread.
I would like to add few things.

the P51 B,C or D was a great air plane.
Most of the figthers at that times were good planes with their strength and their weaknesses.

as an example, If you read the result of test (from the UK) to compare a P51 B with a FW 190 (a F from italy mistakenly identified as A8)
i quote.
speed the P51is  a lot faster that the german aircraft around  50 mph at all level and  70 above 28 k.
(390 mph + 50 = 440 all is fine)

climb: "there is little to chose between the 2 aircrafts.
dive: mustang can outdive fw190
roll rate= not even a mustang can approach the fw190
turning circle : there is not much to chose.
the mustang being sligtly better.
conclusion:
dogfigthing is not recomended altogether. in attack high speed should be maintained. in defense a steep turn followed by a full throttle dive should increase range before regaining heght.
end of quote

Note that a A5 for example (or a A7 or early A8 ) would have compared much better than the plane tested and a A8 R8 (sturm) would have compared much worse.

Anyway that shows the qualities of the plane.
It is true that by jully 44 the allied had the control of the skies, the mustang being instrumental to that.
As it is true that the luftwaffe produced the most prolifics and efficient pilots.
Heinz bar shoot down p 51 in is Me 262 (and in fw 190 A7)
Hartman (as far as i know )scored a triple and a double against P51. All that in late 44

You could go on for a life time but at the end of the day, but in an online game plane are not used as they were in real life.

Most of the time, we end up dogfigthing (or b7zuming) close to the sheeps either at full speed or full flaps.
In ETO that meant death, plain and simple
That behing said it would mean like spending 11 minutes climbing to 25 k with my A4 (17 minutes in a A8 r8.) then dive on the bomber stream and reclimb and do that again.
or if you are allied 2 to 3 hours of flying around 25 k  @ 300 mph and protect the bomber or fend the high cover to tackle the sturmbocks.



funked

  • Guest
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #111 on: November 17, 1999, 02:39:00 PM »
From Fats information then we can conclude that in the first 5 months of 1944 there were no more than 667 day fighters facing the 8th and 9th AF as well as the RAF.

Hell the 8th AF alone put up more planes that that on a single mission!

OK SnakeEyes you weaselly seal-clubber, Eat Them Words!!!

"The idea that the Luftwaffe was decimated by the overwhelming numbers during early 1944 (when they had some of their heaviest losses) is completely and utterly untrue. "


  <S>

Offline SnakeEyes

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #112 on: November 17, 1999, 04:23:00 PM »
You guys ain't gettin' off that easy... y'all are quite aware that the Luftwaffe didn't press the Buffs much until they were outside the range of the allied aircraft... except now the 5 P-51 groups (with some help from the two underperforming P38 groups) could escort all the way to and back from the target.

Again, the point is quite simple... the Luftwaffe lost more pilots in March and April 1944 than they had lost in the two previous years (emphasis added for Luftwaffe sympathizers   ).

The primary variable that changed the situation was the addition of 5 P-51B Fighter Groups.  The Germans had been fighting bombers throughout 1943, had been fighting the Soviets and everyone else for the preceding two years, and probably fielded a similar number of aircraft in the over the prior two years.  Dislike it as you might, the P-51B (with particular emphasis on the 4th FG's very aggressive approach, combined with the fact that many of their pilots were quite experienced, due to their time in the Eagle Squads) is the main factor that changed the situation and deprived the Luftwaffe of many of its experienced pilots.

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-18-1999).]

Offline Sundog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1781
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 1999, 11:18:00 PM »
This is a reply to the middle of this thread about calculating Induced Drag.

Induced Drag is the drag due to lift. The reason this develops, is that awing must have an `angle of attack' represented by `alpha' as we know, to generate lift. Now, lift is not the Force vector generated by the wing, merely a large a component of it at low alpha. The force generated by a wing (based on memory) is roughly perpendicular to alpha. Now picture in your head. a force vetor sticking up from the wing, perpendicular to alpha. It would point up and slightly rearward in level flight. Now, as you turn or perform any maneuver which increases alpha, the vector points back further. Of course, up to the point where the wing stalls, the total force generated by the wing also increases (Which makes sense, since if you are executing a 4g turn in a 10,000 LB airplane, you must now develop 40,000 of force).

My point is, lift is only the `vertical' component of the force vector generated by the wing. The rearward component of the force vector is the `induced' drag component. If you are able to measure your `alpha' and know the `force' generated be your wing throughout the envelope, you can set-up your triangle and solve for the induced drag component.

Good luck!


Offline Sundog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1781
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 1999, 11:19:00 PM »
This is a reply to the middle of this thread about calculating Induced Drag.

Induced Drag is the drag due to lift. The reason this develops, is that a wing must have an `angle of attack' represented by `alpha' as we know, to generate lift. Now, lift is not the Force vector generated by the wing, merely a large a component of it at low alpha. The force generated by a wing (based on memory) is roughly perpendicular to alpha. Now picture in your head. a force vetor sticking up from the wing, perpendicular to alpha. It would point up and slightly rearward in level flight. Now, as you turn or perform any maneuver which increases alpha, the vector points back further. Of course, up to the point where the wing stalls, the total force generated by the wing also increases (Which makes sense, since if you are executing a 4g turn in a 10,000 LB airplane, you must now develop 40,000 of force).

My point is, lift is only the `vertical' component of the force vector generated by the wing. The rearward component of the force vector is the `induced' drag component. If you are able to measure your `alpha' and know the `force' generated be your wing throughout the envelope, you can set-up your triangle and solve for the induced drag component.

Good luck!


Offline Minotaur

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 130
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #115 on: November 18, 1999, 08:20:00 AM »
It was a very sad fact, that indeed often the bombers were used as "bait".  So the LW would come to the bait, and the allied fighters could shoot them down.  It was a race to see who could maintain the highest rate of mortalilty, the longest.  True of any war.

Just remember, we are talking about "Human Lifes" and not just numbers out a history book.

I perfer to keep my attitude fantasy, the real life re-inactments tend to bug me.

Mino

Offline Westy

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2871
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #116 on: November 18, 1999, 12:32:00 PM »
Well. this thread is too good to let it fade away. Here is one story from a P51 pilot in early 1944. Supposedly when the cream of the LW was still in the air.....   --Westy

 "Beating Four Aces "

Lt. Henry Brown pulled off one of the most amazing bluffs of the war.

Lt. Henry Brown was on his second tour in fighters, based at Steeple
Morden, UK, with the 355th Fighter Group. On the morning of April 11,
1944, in his Hun Hunter From Texas, he was number four in the 354th
Fighter Squadron's Blue Flight, escorting bombers to their target on the
outskirts of Berlin.

After the bombers unloaded and headed for home, the 355th turned its
escort duty over to another group and prepared to strafe targets of
opportunity, the most dangerous of fighter tactics. The four squadrons
fanned out, each to find its own targets. Blue Leader picked the
Luftwaffe airfield at Strausberg to the east of Berlin. The four P-51s
went down in a screaming 400-mph dive, their props cutting weeds as they
came in over the field.

On the first pass, Lieutenant Brown burned a Ju-52, then riddled a Ju-88
bomber on his second pass. Spotting an FW-190 fighter taking off, he
performed a chandelle to the left, pulling up behind the German fighter
and shooting it down just as he ran out of ammunition. While Brown was
busy reducing the Luftwaffe's inventory, the other three members of his
flight had formed up and were on their way home.

Climbing to 15,000 feet, Lieutenant Brown saw four fighters in the
distance, heading west. Maybe they were members of his group. As he
closed on them, he discovered that they were Bf-109s--difficult to tell
from P-51s at a distance. In perfect firing position but out of
ammunition, he reduced power and slid into their blind spot at six
o'clock low. Why had they not seen him? Then he spotted two Mustangs
ahead and below. The -109s were so intent on hunting the Mustangs that
they had not seen him.

Brown called a warning to the Mustangs, which broke sharply to the left
with the -109s now almost in firing range. He told the Mustang pilots he
would try to disrupt the enemy formation. At that moment, the Luftwaffe
pilots picked up on Brown as he closed on their tails, not knowing he
was out of ammunition. Henry Brown didn't pause to calculate his chance
of survival. He saw what needed to be done, and he did it.

There followed a 20-minute engagement in which Brown outturned his four
adversaries, who held all the aces, forcing them one by one to roll out
of a Lufbery circle and dive for the ground. While Lieutenant Brown
hovered constantly on the verge of a high-G blackout, the two Mustangs
he had saved disappeared to the west, leaving him alone in an unfriendly
sky.

Having won the Lufbery fight against incalculable odds, Henry Brown
throttled back and turned for home. In that moment of relaxation, one of
the -109s climbed back up and got on his tail. Suddenly, Hun Hunter was
taking hits. Fortunately, the Luftwaffe pilot overshot, giving Brown
time to split-S to the treetops. His sigh of relief was short-lived.
There were holes in his left wing, but more serious, his compass had
been shot out. With no friendly aircraft around, he could only guess at
the correct heading for England.

Brown called in the blind, giving his approximate position and asking
someone to tell him the sun position on his canopy for a rough heading
to the UK. At length, a voice came back, telling him to put the sun on
the second screw from the top of his left canopy railing. Correcting his
course, he realized he soon was going to be above solid-to-broken
clouds. No more ground checks. At last, through a small break in the
clouds, he saw the coast of Holland.

A call to Air-Sea Rescue got him a rough heading to Steeple Morden. From
there, he got a home steer from Steeple Morden tower. Six hours and 15
minutes after takeoff, Henry Brown touched down at home plate. He found
out later that the two Mustang pilots he had saved, and who apparently
had deserted him, also had been out of ammunition.

For a day marked by superior skill and unsurpassed valor, Henry Brown
was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross to go with his Silver Star,
multiple Distinguished Flying Crosses and Air Medals, and a Purple
Heart. He tallied 11 more air-to-air victories, ending the war with 14.2
(17.2?), plus more than 14 planes destroyed on the ground. What his
score might have been had he not been downed by flak while strafing an
airfield on Oct. 3, 1944, is only conjecture.

On the day he bellied in, his squadron operations officer, Maj. Chuck
Lenfest, landed to rescue him, but Lenfest's P-51 became stuck in soft
ground. Lt. Alvin White also landed in an attempted rescue. The downed
men were escaping and did not see him. White was able to take off and
returned home alone. Brown and Lenfest ended the war as guests of the
Luftwaffe.

Henry Brown remained in the Air Force, serving among other assignments
as test pilot, combat pilot in Vietnam, wing commander, and deputy
director of Operations, 7th Air Force. He retired as a colonel in 1974,
one of the most decorated Air Force officers, and now lives in Sumter,
S.C.

Offline SnakeEyes

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 1999, 04:52:00 PM »
3/4ths of the 8th Air Force's fighter aircraft losses were due to Ack.  That's one of the reasons that I've always been impressed with the fact that the 4th FG far outscored the 56th FG in A2G kills (you'd think that the 56th would have been better able to do it in the more rugged Jug).

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

Offline leonid

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 239
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #118 on: November 19, 1999, 07:48:00 AM »
SnakeEyes,
I absolutely agree with you wrt the P-51's effect on the air war in western Europe.  If not for the arrival of the Mustang as bomber escort, the daylight strategic bombing campaign would have invariably undergone some serious reassessment, probably resulting in a more restrictive and shorter-ranged campaign, or even a discontinuation of the daylight bombing campaign altogether.  The results of the P-51's influence in the bombing campaign were nothing short of miraculous.

Also, when the LW was unable to make any serious strategic effects in the Russian front, Hitler decided to shift its priorites over to Home defence against the Allied bombers.  This effectively deprived the Wehrmacht of a major portion of its air support in Russia, and allowed the Soviets to make good on its air losses after a time, something many VVS pilots were openly thankful for(at least the USAAF and RAF were really trying to help the Soviets beat the Germans).  In winning the bombing campaign over western Europe, the Allies fatally weakened the long arm of the German military machine, the Luftwaffe.  Hence, though over 60% of LW air losses occurred in Russia, it was in western Europe that the LW was defeated, because it was here that the jagdfliegen were whittled to almost nothing.  Sure, there were overwhelming numbers of Allied fighters in ever increasing amounts as time passed, but if not for the P-51 such numbers would have mattered for little.

And don't worry, SnakeEyes, I won't ask you which nation defeated the Germans on the ground.  You can save face.  This one's on me  


------------------
129 IAP VVS RKKA


ingame: Raz

Offline SnakeEyes

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
the not so studly Mustang
« Reply #119 on: November 19, 1999, 09:20:00 AM »
Actually, my honest opinion is that it was necessary for "all of us" to be involved in order for the Allies to win the war.

Without the Brits, the US wouldn't have had a base to stage attacks on Western Europe.  Without the Soviets, the Brits would have been overwhelmed most likely, Without the US, the Brits wouldn't have been able to mount a credible threat to the Germans, forcing them to hold back aircraft and men from the Eastern Front.  Without the Soviets, the panzer force in Western Europe would have been much larger.  It's also likely that that without the US, the Japanese would have created a Western Front on the Soviets, as they were interested in getting access to that oil (as well as the oil in South East Asia).

Without the Western Front, the Eastern Front would have been much different... and without the Eastern Front, the Western Front would have been a profoundly tougher battle.  They are all part of a larger intertwined whole.

The Soviets definitely broke the Wehrmacht's back on the ground (which is a tad different than winning the ground war), and the USAAF did the same to the Luftwaffe (which is a bit different from winning the air war).

------------------
SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-19-1999).]