the not so studly Mustang

[funked]

Thanks Vermillion.

Yes I wish there was something out there like AHT for foreign planes.  Who knows, with all the info we are finding, maybe we should write it.  

[SnakeEyes]

 

As for 19:1 ratio….Well, Luftwaffe was heavily outnumbered at the time, they were scrambling while p51s waited high in the air, their primary targets were the bombers, most pilots were very unexperienced, element of surprise was on the side of Allies, plane parts were not always available etc etc.

Well, I don't know about all this physics BS  , but I do know that Hristo suffers from the common misconception about the 8th AF P-51s only doing well when the Luftwaffe was "outnumbered."  The 4th Fighter Group scored about 400 kills in a 4-5 month period (February to June 1944) at a time when most of the 8th AF was NOT able to accompany the B-17s all the way to Berlin.

In my not-totally-educated opinion, the difference in "simulated" performance vs. RL performance comes down to: a) the relatively low altitude of most Sim combat; b) Icons and lack of atmospheric phenonmena (e.g. - clouds); c) the inability of sims to fully simulate the impact of things like the 109's cramped cockpit; d) the existence of Netlag, which often enables people to get off what seems like an impossible shot, but isn't... from their perspective; and e) the fact that AH is in its "Warbirds 1.11" stage with regard to being able to do things like dropping flaps & gear at any speed.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Nath-BDP]

"On 27th November, we tried some new tactics, it was technically speaking a strafing raid. But we used that as a ruse, hoping to draw out their fighters. The Mustangs of the 353rd Group arranged themselves in a bomber formation and our planes flew the standard zig-zag escort pattern above them. The idea was to fool the German radar and scramble the interceptors.  It worked almost too well.  They threw themselves at us 100 miles southwest of berlin, north of Leipzig.  The enemy pilots must have had coronaries when they discovered what they were attacking -- not B17s, but more than 100 fighters spoiling for trouble.  Out pulses jumped, too, when we saw the hornet's nest we'd stirred up, for they came, not by the dozens or scores, but like insect like clouds we called "gaggles".  For whatever reason, they decided to hit this raid with everything they had.
     "It was the biggest concentration of enemy airplanes I had ever seen!  They came in two clusters of 80 to 100 planes each.  I'd seen 100 all together before, but here were two groups that big, mostly Fock-Wulfs.
They were coming at us almost head-on, at 11 o'clock; we turned into them as they passsed and all hell broke loose.
     "I fell on a straggler who broke smartly and ran for the deck. Letting him go, I turned and went back where the fighting was, with wingman Ray Wolf close beside me.  I picked out a 190 ahead at about 31,000 feet,  closed to within 250 yards before he knew what was happening, and hammered him with a burst that made flashes all over the fuselage. When he didn't do anything, I followed up with another, and he rolled over slowly, too slowly, and fell into a spin. The pilot must have been dead. I turned away looking for targets. There were airplanes darting all over the sky."

'Bud' Anderson, and the rest of the 357th FG's pilots, had a field day. 'Kit Carson got five, Chuck Yeager claimed four and Anderson three -- these later went into the records as two and a probable'. The group had put up 49 P51s and came home with a score of 31 enemy fighters destroyed, which at that time was a record, for the loss of a single P51'.
(Osprey Aircraft of the Aces, Mustang Aces of the Eighth Air Force)

It wasn't always 5 to 1 against the Germans, this is just one of the many cases where Allied fighters were outnumbered and won,  allied fighter pilots weren't unexperienced, untrained and stoopid, compared to the Germans, as you imply, Hristo.  Some of the top scoring U.S. Aces also had a successfull career in the Pac before moving to the ETO. One of them being Col John landers who was an ace in the Pac then shot down 14.4 German planes in the ETO.



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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[weretiger]

My ten pennies worth

Historical data and kill ratio:
Kill ratio is very often really unreliable. You would have to cross check each victory claim with enemy losses.
And claim is the hurting bit
The German claims process was one of the most reliable and they still over claimed...
(They are the most easy to cross check and it still is very difficult)...

The US and Uk were not as rigorous and the more difficult to estimate. It is acknowledged that they overclaimed even more.

Flight model:
It is really really difficult to find accurate and relevant data for a given aircraft especially if it’s from the axis forces.
The worst bit is that it can be misleading.

i will give you two examples.
There was test conducted by the Uk and US to compare the fw 190 and the allied machines
So you say fine that will give us something to compare.

in 42 the UK used a A3 (with a de-rated engine) and in winter 43/44 they used a 109 f (the NSAM one). It was believed to be a A8 at the time.

I have seen those two tests in the UK archive
They both quote the speed of the Fw190 A at 390 @ 21 k and it is true for a A3 with a de-rated engine and for a F8 that not the case for a real A3 to A5 (420 mph @ 22 k).
For the A8, I am not sure yet i have weight and engine problems...

Anyway back to the P51D
in the UK archive they claim that the Max speed was 420 mph
I always believed that it was 437. If you read the test it says that the plane was in fully operational mode without external tank. I guess it means that the plane tanks were full, it had guns and ammo and the tanks attach points (it did not have the tanks). May be it had the Packard engine I do not know why there I such discrepancies in the speed. I can not tell because I do not have enough info….

My point being that it is really easy to find official data that contradict common knowledge or other official data and unless you have proof that the research has been thorough. The information may not be the one you actually want or need.

As for the game result of the plane compared to its real life.
It very difficult to simulate the spotting and plane recognition, That would limit the type of plane per country and add a recognition process (which will be dependant of your video…) you would need condensation trail, sun reflection.
As well, you would need campaign type setting and some sort of evolved supply structure  (marine warfare, land warfare, other front’s etc in order to uses the aircraft  in close to life situation.

[leonid]

To SnakeEyes & Nath,
By 1944, the average Luftwaffe pilot was lucky to get 60 hours of flying time in their primary aircraft before participating in combat.  For the USAAF and RAF it was in the hundreds.  

If you want to recreate similar conditions in AH, get nine new guys who have flown the 109 and 190(okay, and maybe played M$ Flight Sim) for no more than six days, and one guy who's been flying either for a year, then pit them against ten new guys in P-51Ds who've been flying for a month, or two.

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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[Hristo]

Nath, what is your explanation for 31:1 K/D ratio, in that battle against the odds...Allies were outnumbered, there, right ?

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders

[Nath-BDP]

Superior Plane and experienced pilots.

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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[SnakeEyes]

The experience level of a LW pilot was substantially less in August 1944 than it was in March 1944.  And, still, a relatively small number of P-51 Fighter Groups cleaned the Luftwaffe's clock in February, March, April and May 1944.  By June/July, the Luftwaffe was avoiding encounters with Allied fighters at virtually all costs, because they had lost so many planes and pilots.

PS - When the 4th FG flew their first P-51 sorties, they hadn't even been fully familiarized with the aircraft (and I believe the first mission was to Berlin).  Blakeslee's comment was that they could "learn on the way."

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[This message has been edited by SnakeEyes (edited 11-12-1999).]

[aircat]

those saying that the allied forces had the prior training: heres a little tid bit. I can not remember the pilots name but will look it up if need be.

this pilot hade a few hours in a piper craft his father bought after anouther pilot had crash landed it in his fathers tree. he paid 50 bucks for it at that time. his son flew it after getting BASIC instructions. he put in very few hours in it before the war started. when he got to the service his training consisted of about 20 - 30 hours in a class room. then they was ushered out to some planes (P-40s) and they said get in and get used to your new plane. they hadn't even went over handling characteristics of the war machine. he was like any other teen ager at the time and buzzed the local cattle farms. his flight lasted only a few hours. he was then sent to the front lines in his P40 he also flew it to the field he was stationed at. a few days later he had his first combat mission with only somewhere in his teens of hours in the craft. later they was switched to the P51D fresh off the line..... again they basicaly said heres the keys go for a spin. a few hours later he returned after buzzing Europian farmer fields this time. and had his first mission in the craft the next day (he was still a teen at this time).

So I guess the 60 hours in their craft to get familur in thier craft was alot considering.

something else strikes me odd... in another post about the FW 190 it is supposed to have a climb time to 20k a little over 9 minutes but in AH its 7 minutes 15 seconds the P51D is supposed to have a climb to 20k in 7 minutes 18 seconds but has a climb time over 8 minutes........... the P51D also is supposed to have a sealevel climb rate of 3,475 FPM with standard load and wep. I have tried it and even with only 25% fuel all ammo expended and the 4 gun version used the closest I have came was ~3,275 FPM. also the FW 190 has a fake high 6 view (yes I know and I am not trying to start a FW consiracy here as in Brand W) the top canopy bar does not extend clear to the rear.

[funked]

Aircat - The bar did not extend all the way to the rear on the early-style Fw 190 canopy depicted in AH.

Later on when the blown bubble canopy was introduced, some of them had a brace going all the way back, some had the brace going half-way, and some had none.  This hood was used on the Fw 190A-8, F-8, G-8, and D-9.

But the early-style hoods (by far the most common) had the bar only going half-way back.

Also I've been studying a lot of Fw 190A test results, and the climb numbers are highly variable.

I've got some as low as 2100 fpm and some as high as 3800 fpm.  I'm guessing the variation is due to state of tune, external stores, internal weight variations, fuel type, power setting, MW-50, something like that.

[Hristo]

 

Superior Plane and experienced pilots.

More likely inferior plane and unexperienced pilots on the enemy side.

I wonder what would happen if they met experienced 109 pilots from JG 1, for example.

Still, there is Hartmann's story of shooting 4 Mustangs in one sortie in his 109G. Later he had to bail when he was outnumbered by 8:1 or something like that. Good for our JG morale, don't you think, Nath ?

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-12-1999).]

[SnakeEyes]

And what if JG1 ran into the pilots of the 4th FG in March 1944, when many of them had 2 years experience under their belts?

Here's a quote from American Eagles, by Thomas McKelvey Cleaver:

"During March and April, 1944, German pilot losses exceeded total combat losses for the previous two years. These were the 'old hares,' the experienced pilots without whom an air force is a mere shell. Their replacements, undertrained youngsters barely able to fly their FW-190s and Bf-109s straight and level were only barely better than no replacements at all."

The P-51B pilots from groups like the 4th FG took a very heavy toll on the Luftwaffe's core of experienced pilots... and they did it without a numerical advantage over the Luftwaffe (it wasn't until June or so that the 8th AF's order of battle shows the majority of its FG flying 51s).

In other words, this stuff you're spouting about the Luftwaffe's pilots being inexperienced and outnumbered really only applies to the Luftwaffe after the early P-51B flying Fighter Groups wiped them out.

Does that mean that AH's P-51 isn't modeled properly... not necessarily.  It just means that your statements are substantially flawed with regard to the historical record.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Hristo]

Ok, looks like we could do this forever. Thread started with doubts in proper P-51D modeling, which was cleared, it seems. And then, after replying to 19:1 kill ratio, I was drawn into the type of discussion I dislike, away from pure plane performance and numbers.

Here's my last try:

To me, Luftwaffe had great individuals. Pilots who started from glider training in 30s (some said it was the best E training they could get), gathered experience in Spain, developed new tactics and formations, then fought for almost 5 years of in just about every European front. They flew mostly 1 plane type, not an unimportant factor. Real aces, with scores way beyond 100 and 200, some even 300. And their kills were never like Allied "decimal" scores etc. Sure the best scorers fought on Eastern front, but some of these individuals shot significant number of Western flown aircraft. And now you say there comes P-51B, outnumbered, and shoots down most of those aces in 2 months period of 1944, just to leave Luftwaffe with newbies only ? Remarkable achievement, but I can hardly believe it.

P-51B was better in many important aspects than LW planes of the time: speed, dive and range. I'll leave guns discussion to someone else, and turn performance was not that important, IMO.

Pilot experience ? How could anyone know who shot who ? And even best pilots can lose against newbies if put in bad situation. Who was an ace there, and who was a newbie, we can never know.

But I won't argue anymore, since there were many other factors than plane performance and pilot experience. Mission objectives, elements of surprise, intial advantage, formation setups, plane condition, supplies...most of these come to mind.

But I would like to go back to the subject of this thread.

I consider P-51D the best streak machine in AH. Just like it was in real life. Also, 190A-8 is no match for P-51D IMO. 109G-10 can give it a run for its money, and rightly so. Still when I fly 109G-10, I consider P-51D the most dangerous opponent, besides other 109G-10.

Quantity or pilot experience can't be modeled, and luckily late war reliability or fuel quality on LW side is not modeled.

So, I will stick to flying now (after I get new pots  ). And yes, I like to shoot down P-51s, even more after this thread.



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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders

[SnakeEyes]

Well... believe it or not, the statistics are available.  Statistics from both sides confirm that the Luftwaffe lost an incredible number of planes and pilots in March and April 1944.  And data is also available showing which groups were equipped with the P-51B at that time.  The idea that the USAAF fighters outnumbered the Luftwaffe in early 1944 is a complete myth.

As for knowing which pilots fought whom, it is uncommon to know, but there are a few situations where it is pretty much known.  For example, many researchers agree that Don Gentile shot down one of the LW's leading aces in 1 on 1 combat during April 1944 (I'd have to look up the guy's name).  Don wasn't some rife newbie, neither was the Luftwaffe ace, and the battle is estimated to have lasted several minutes... at which point Don finally got the best of him.  The point being, given relatively equal pilot skill, the 51 could definitely hold its own.

Atmospheric conditions affect both sides.  That's really pretty much moot IMO.

In any case, you're saying that you don't believe the data, and that the discussion is now over... sorry, that don't wash in my book, pal.  This 'historical data' is nearly as verifiable as NACA test data... it just doesn't have a direct link to aircraft performance (although it obviously implies a few things).  You can chose to believe whatever you'd like... but the fact of the matter is that a handful of P-51B FGs (along with one or two P38 groups) from the 8th AF decimated the Luftwaffe in March and April 1944.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Nath-BDP]

Heres an encounter between John Godfrey of the 4th FG flying a P-51B against 190D, perhaps it will change your opinion on Allied pilot's skill.

"A plane was approaching and because of its long nose I thought it was a Mustang.  Turning into it I received a shock, it was neither a Mustang nor an ME-109, but a new Focke-Wulf, its long nose was the latest improvement of the famed FW.  These planes with the longer noses were rumored to have more horsepower than their predecessors, and were capable of giving Mustang a rough time.  We met practically head-on and both of us banked our planes in preparation for a dogfight.
     Around and around we went.  Sometimes the FW got in close, and other times, when I'd drop my flap to tighten my turn, I was in a position to fire, but the German, sensing my superior position, kept swinging down in his turn, and gaining aspeed and quickly pulling up, and with the advantage in height he would then pour down on my tail.  Time was in his favor, he could fight that way for an hour and still have enough fuel to land anywhere below him.  I still had 400 miles of enemy territory to fly over before I could land.  Something had to be done.  Throwing caution to the wind I lifted a flap, dove and pulled up in a steep turn, at the same time dropping a little flap.  The G was terrific, but it worked, and I had the Jerry nailed for sure.  Pressing the tit I waited, but nothing happened, not a damned thing.  My guns weren't firing.
     By taking this last gamble I had lost altitude but had been able to bring my guns to bear while flying below the FW.  With his advantage of height he came down, pulled up sharp, and was smack-dab on my tail again.  The 20 mm. cannons belched and I could see what looked like golf balls streaming by me.  A little less deflection and those seemingly harmless golf balls would have exploded instantly lupon contact with my plane.  "Never turn your back on an enemy" was a byword with us, but I had no choice.  Turning the plane over on its back I yanked the stick to my but.  My throttle was wide open and I left it there as I dove.  The needle stopped at 600 miles per -- that was as far as it could go on the dial.  Pulling out I expected at any minute to have the wings rip off, the plane was bucking so much. The last part of the pull-up brought me up into clouds.  I was thankful to have evaded the long-nosed FW, for that pilot was undoubtedly the best that I had ever met."
(Exerpt from FIGHTER COMBAT, Shaw, Naval Institute press)
Unfortunatly, Godfreys guns had jammed or suffered damage from the high altitude escort due to the cold weather.

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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"