Author Topic: the not so studly Mustang (Read 3792 times)

Swoosh · « **Reply #15 on:** October 16, 1999, 06:52:00 AM »

Today, I dove on a spit from about a 4k alt advantage in my P51. I pinged him a few times, but nothing major. Slowly, I was setting up for my killing shot. A few zoom climbs later I could no longer safely ignore the 109 G coming up from below. I decided to bug out. Although I had a full K on the spit in alt, plus .5 in horizontal distance, and I was at least 1.5 over the 109 G, they both caught up to me within approximately thirty seconds. I was not full speed when I began my extention, but then again, neither was the Spitfire IX. How did he catch up to me, if my plane had its historical superior horsepower?

Even allowing for the fact that the 109 G is a late war model and heavy horsed, the P-51 should be able to go faster than 200-250 in level flight. Shouldn't it?

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Swoosh of the Skeleton Crew

Granger · « **Reply #16 on:** October 16, 1999, 07:00:00 AM »

I fly the 51..ALOT, and have also noticed that any 109 can catch it, plain and simple.

The other night I was in a 109, chasin a 51.
Was a full 4k behind him and also below.
took bout 3 or 4 minutes but i gained both speed and alt, soon he was dead. This should not happen IMHO. I was doin under 200 when the chase started, he was pulling away.
The 51 does about 305 at 10k, In the 109 i was doin bout 320 or so..climbing at 1000 fpm. Dont see how a 109 can do this..but in this game, it is so.

Granger

aircat · « **Reply #17 on:** October 16, 1999, 07:02:00 AM »

one thing NO ONE is taken into account.... the wieght to HP ratio means little (unless figuring acceleration and steep climb ability) the THRUST to weight ratio is what counts in long run when figuring top speed.
aero dynamics plays a part too.... in the instances that I have been caught in the 51 by other types of aircraft was not in canyons and not turns involved just a LOOOOOONG shallow dive then leveling out... not enough to give them the ability to cut an angle (if so they are so minute that would not be noticable) Ive had a spit dive steeper then me then come back up and stay on my tail... Ive have a 109 gentle climb then back down to me... and they are catching up from outragous lenths.... one 30 minute run they got clear from 6.3k to 600 (where apon they open fire and totaled me). I had ran from a fur ball due to no more ammo and I left the fight with about 1k advantage over the other planes... the fight was at about 7k I was about 8k...this CANT be cause of plane load... I had 50% fuel and NO ammo. and I have flown all alts and have yet to see 437 mph wether it be IAS or TAS it cant be so far off that the highest Ive seen is ~ 300 with wep..... that and had a strange inceadent when I dove on a plane from an extreme alt ( I was in a dive to get vis of a plane supposedly in area... found him continued to dive) at ALMOST 500 IAS the controls started to lock up.... I put trim full opposet but to no avail... why take a plane that had increadable record (19:1) kill/death ratio and turn it into a flying brick... and I doubt seriously that they will ever implement the special sights that the later war models did (later 51D and thent he 51K series). and yes I agree more then one plane needs work but some need more then others...

leonid · « **Reply #18 on:** October 16, 1999, 08:30:00 AM »

I posted this earlier, Hitech posted it afterwards, and now I'm going to post it again: Speeds are by Indicated Air Speed (IAS), not True Air Speed (TAS)!

As one increases altitude, the difference between IAS and TAS widens. You could have an IAS of 300mph at 20k+ and have a TAS of 400mph+, okay?! I can't remember the general ratios, but the whole phenomena is due to decreasing air pressure. The higher up you are the less the air pressure there is to determine air speed. Hence, the pitot tube(?) will measure a lower speed than is actually the case when at altitude.

Swoosh · « **Reply #19 on:** October 16, 1999, 08:50:00 AM »

Fine. Its IAS not TAS. But you are splitting hairs, dude. IAS, TAS, or ROFLMAOAS it doesn't matter, because we all use the same system. Nobody has proffered an explanation as to how or why, if the flight model is accurate, the 109 and the spit caught up to me. See, I get the impression that the P-51 is undermodeled. Prove me wrong or fix it.

leonid · « **Reply #20 on:** October 16, 1999, 09:21:00 AM »

Okay, Swoosh, I'm going to get my friend Hristo and we're going to do a test called chase. I'll be in a P-51D and he'll fly the Bf 109G-10. He'll take 75% fuel and I'll take 50%. We'll climb to 15k , then I'll take off in a dive while he tries to follow me. WEP on full.

30 seconds is not that long a time to build up maximum speed, especially with planes that probably have one of the highest acceleration ratings among WWII fighters: Bf 109G-10 and the Spitfire IX. The P-51D was poor in this category.

Hristo · « **Reply #21 on:** October 16, 1999, 10:38:00 AM »

Here’s how I experience p51/109 matchup in Aces High.

109 can’t catch p51 in straight level chase with reasonable fuel loads for both planes ! Period.

BUT !

If p51 and 109 both start from low or medium speed, 109 will outaccelerate p51 and catch it. Try to measure time needed for 109 and p51 to reach top speed from 150 IAS or so.

If p51 goes into even shallow climb, 109 will catch it.

If fleeing p51 deflects control surfaces, forgets about coordinated flight or the plane is out of trim, 109 flying coordinated will catch it.

If 109 lead turns p51 who is stupid enough not to dive away, 109 will catch it.

Usually when p51 realizes 109 is catching up, it does a Split S or, if he is less experienced, starts scissoring or even flat turning. Zooming makes him a sitting duck. Split S is energy wasting maneuver, IMO. Works only if friends or friendly ack is below and pursuing plane disengages. The pursuer did not disengage because of the wonderfully performed Split S, but was not stupid enough to give away his energy in the enemy airspace.

Never have I seen p51 unload in front of me and dive away. Why, I don’t know. That’s what I would do if in p51 and with 109 behind me.

Now that I started this monologue, here is a question I ask myself when flying AH. If I sneak on enemy even from great range (d30 and far more), he almost never turns into me. Instead, 90% of pilots fly level until I get inside d10, and then try to shake me off their 6. Now, isn’t there a smarter tactic than this one ?

This defensive thinking falls into same category as expecting p51 to do miracles.

The incident I mentioned before was when I was winging with Leonid. He headed for home, while I decided to dive on a Spit and rtb too. I got the Spit, just as I noticed p51 closing in from d40. I had some 300 mph of speed, my plane had some 30-40% fuel and I zoomed away, and then started climbing at 165 IAS. Much to my surprise, p51 was catching up still. He probably had accumulated speed and converted it into zoom climb after me. This time I acted like a beginner, and instead of meeting him HO and disengaging, I hoped for climbrate to save me. It did not work !! I was forced to TnB, then others came and you can guess the result.

As for 19:1 ratio….Well, Luftwaffe was heavily outnumbered at the time, they were scrambling while p51s waited high in the air, their primary targets were the bombers, most pilots were very unexperienced, element of surprise was on the side of Allies, plane parts were not always available etc etc.

If Aces High had 109 flying against the odds, like in real life, you could gather same K/D ratio, I am sure. Here you don’t cruise at 30k, waiting above the bomber box for enemy to climb to you, and then pounce him and zoom away.

Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders”

chisel · « **Reply #22 on:** October 16, 1999, 10:46:00 AM »

found myself a IAS to TAS converter

AIRCAT and others;

437mph TAS at 25k is 290 mph indicated. Stang does this at that alt.

Speeds seem pretty close to what Ive seen written.

Edit: oops made a big typo sorry changed 219 to 290.

PS Pyro did you just move this thread to AC and vehicle section??? Trying to make my brain hurt eh?

[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 10-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by chisel (edited 10-16-1999).]

Pyro · « **Reply #23 on:** October 16, 1999, 11:44:00 AM »

I've moved this topic to the appropriate forum.

With MW-50 the 109 has a slight speed advantage up to about 14K where it enjoys a larger speed advantage for the next 10K of altitude. After that the P-51 gets an increasing speed advantage as altitude increases. Without MW-50 and WEP, the P-51 is faster except in the 15-20K or so altitude range.

I'm documenting some of this stuff on the side. Don't hold your breath on it, but we should have plane pages up on our site at some point during the beta.

As to the TAS vs IAS stuff, I've grown pretty weary of it. It's not intuitive for people to know the difference and most people don't keep a whiz wheel handy to make the conversions. So what we've decided to do is add a secondary gauge to the airspeed indicator for TAS. It will show up as a little extra tick mark much like the 10K needle on the altimeter. Hopefully, that will put an end to the "why are the planes 200mph slow" questions for the most part.

As to the "prove it or change it" mentality- sorry it doesn't work that way. I'm not out to prove anything. If you think there's a problem that should be fixed, the way to go about it is to make a quantified observation and describe the problem with the obtained results.

------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Hristo · « **Reply #24 on:** October 16, 1999, 02:34:00 PM »

So, 109g10 IS faster than p51 at low and medium alt ? I guess all those p51 that got away from me were just better in keeping that E cushion

Nevertheless, I like it

And thanks, Pyro, for informing us.

As for TAS indicator in plane, please don't do it. If one never bothered to realize the difference, what is his knowledge of airplanes anyway ?

Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51 “Mölders”

P.S.
How's the chance of getting the Pfeil ?

aircat · « **Reply #25 on:** October 16, 1999, 04:35:00 PM »

ok, I can understand that the 109 is as fast if not faster from 15 to 20 k.... but why do they catch me at other alts and the spits catch me aswell? let me guess now your going to say they are faster from 12k to 17k right? for a plane that its main defence (that pilots swore upon) was to nose down slightly and run like a mother ****er.. why else the name "Runstang"? it came from the BF and FW that engaged and go advantage on only to have them duck and run.

ok speed aside... ROC is still very poor... cant take a decient ordinance and get off the ground without minor miracal or 2. I have checked SEVERAL climb speeds... none are close to historical data (3475 FPM at see level, no speed was givin with these tests) or what HT told me (3500 FPM at 175 at sea level) I got other numbers 3250 is the best at 175 at sea level (I even took the light version of 4 guns and just to make sure I expended all my ammo before take off) supposed to climb to 20k in 7.3 minutes but as of yet its closer to 8 minutes.

end conclusion... 51 cant climb cant turn cant out run the enemy... why bother putting it in?

I have flow 51 several time and against it several times... the 51 is truely correct is poor plane... once flying along I found 2 51s buzzing along over the canyons I had alt but I wanted to see something ... I taunted them then dove well below to give them the E advantage still just above the canyons... they were not rookies as they new how to fly formation and section an opponent.. but I found it was simple enough to fight them and type other taunts.. which considering my typing is pretty sad. toward the begging of the engagement I was told I was about to regret the side I was on by another pilot as he knew the 2 in the 51s... while fighting the ponies I had a member from me side spot us I yelled out so both side could here that they was my targets and for him to find his own.. he did.. and La5, which one HO and he was the La5 won... the La5 joined in hmm ok now I might be in trouble.. the fight lasted a long time... the La5 had been able to score to hits on me but no damage. the ponies couldnt get target other then some stray shots. I got both ponies and turned on the La5 where upon shortly after he bailed due to fuel problems. my question is me being a rookie aka DWEEB should I in a spit take the vetern ponies with out realy breaking a sweat? yeah it took time but wasnt a real challange.

Vermillion · « **Reply #26 on:** October 16, 1999, 05:28:00 PM »

hmmm... Im not so sure its that the Pony is bad, or even the La5 and 109. Its that the Spit so far excels against everything else it is dominating the arena in proportions that make WB's look like they are having Spit shortages.

For those that don't know, WB's is spit city, and its getting even worse here.

------------------
Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland

funked · « **Reply #27 on:** October 17, 1999, 07:10:00 PM »

Aircat:

FYI the real flight test climb and speed figures were done with 6 guns and full ammo and internal fuel loads.

Go look at the other thread I gave a link to - both the Me 109G-10 and the P-51D seem to be performing a little worse than flight test data.

Guys like Wells and Hristo, they know what they are talking about. I trust their careful measurements over your heat-of-combat recollections.

When you say things like "P-51 was the fastest prop plane of the war" or when you try to use kill/death ratios to justify flight model changes, or when you show that you don't understand the technical details of the Me 109G-10, it really weakens your credibility.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-17-1999).]

fats · « **Reply #28 on:** October 17, 1999, 07:38:00 PM »

aircat:

Do you 0G when you accelerate? If you don't, then that's certainly part of the problem you seem to have. Both spitfire and 109 will accelerate rather fast especially if 0Ging and compared to a P-51 that is not.

//fats

aircat · « **Reply #29 on:** October 17, 1999, 08:46:00 PM »

not all accounts are "heat of combat" I have takin them up several times doing various things. testing ROC with varied speeds. level alt speed checks. with full TO wieght. at reduced wieght (expending all ammo and taking 25% fuel). I have flown the 109 and in order to stop the high speed compression at speeds needed to catch or even stay with a pony and keep it controlable you have to apply 1 or 2 notches flaps which SLOW you down! if its not in the FM then you saying we have hackers? SOMETHING aint right. I posted TRUE data (which was not done by me or in the heat of combat and differs from the FM) but no one obviously listens.