ME-262

[Mark Luper]

The 262 was designed as a fighter. Hitler decided it would be a bomber or they couldn't produce it. It was quickly changed to add that capability and failed in it.  Had the original design been adhered to it would have been a more formidable opponent than it was.


MarkAT

[funked]

Mark:
I don't think it failed at anything.  They just didn't build enough.  It could carry 1000kg of bombs and still evade interceptors.

Juzz:  
Yes the He 162 had better performance than the Me 262.  Notably, it could climb close to 4000fpm at sea level.  It had a fabulous rate of roll.  It also had a more reliable engine (BMW vs. JuMo).  But it only had 2 x MG151/20 and about 20 minutes fuel endurance at sea level.  A perfect Arena plane for sure!

[StormMaster]

Gentlemen,

You boys sure threw me for a loop!  I noticed some 500 server requests from Aces High on the Stormbirds server and couldn't figure out where they had originated from.  Looks like Weazel's graphics were the source.  Whew!

Anyway, some pretty salient points have already been made concerning the Me 262, so I won't beat a dead horse.  You all see to be pretty close to the mark anyway!

It is worth noting; however, that the Germans actually built and flew far more 262s than is commonly believed.  We're seeing solid evidence that the total figure is much closer to 2,000+ than the numbers you typically read about.  

Also, the Fuhrer's decision to convert the design for ground attack (bombing) was largely ignored, so it is true (as I think someone mentioned already) that the plane did see primary duty as a fighter after all.  It was more a shortage of, well, everything (fuel, engines, pilots) that kept them from prolonging the air war, but that's another discussion.

Although many sims have included the 262 recently, I have to admire the approach that Aces High has taken.  After all, you can only do so much before any sense of realism is lost.  Looks like a great sim, and a squared-away group.  My compliments.

Regards,
Chuck  

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Webmaster
 www.stormbirds.com

[fats]

funked:

That is something I have wanted to say for a long time: "262 failed at nothing". It was different people who decided what to do with 262 and wo designed it.

It's kind of same assumption if you put me flying drunken a Fw 190 and compare it to when I am sober ( leph can witness ), I am not fit to fly a 190 or any other plane for that matter when drunk - same argument for 262 vs 262-bomber duty. Maybe not 2 convinsing but to me at the moment after 3 days of drinki iy all makes sense.


//fats

[Lephturn]

Hehe, yeah you didn't fly real good, but damn you were funny.  

Strangely enough, I tend to get more kills drunk than sober.  Hmmm...

Jut to stay on topic... I can't wait for my P47!



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Lephturn
The Flying Pigs

[funked]

Fats:

Yes I agree with you.  Saying that the combat results of the 262 or the Me 163 indicated the design "failed" is like saying that the combat results of the MG42 or the Mauser carbine indicate that its design "failed" too.  

We shouldn't confuse design qualities with production quantity/delivery schedule, tactical situations (i.e. numbers), fuel supply situation, strategic situation, pilot training, etc.

[Gritz]

Wasn't the first 262 kilt gotten by a P-47?

[Fishu]

Me262 A-model was fighter and B-model was bomber model, which could fit two 1000lb bombs below the nose fuselage area.
There were also 2-seater Me262 which was recon plane / trainer I think.

Me262s also could carry air to air rockets.
(WGr21, R4M.. something that way)

[StormMaster]

Fishu,

You're pretty close on all counts here.  The pure fighter was designated the Me 262A-1a, while the fighter-bomber variant was the Me 262A-2a.  

Two-seaters were produced as either dual control Me 262B-1a models or as RADAR equipped Nightfighters, which were known as Me 262B-1a/U1.

Many Me 262A-1a's were modified to carry R4M air to air rockets, and these were normally referred to as Me 262A-1a/R1 models (some sources say /R7).

Regards,
Chuck

[Hristo]

Actually, I was in arena once and HiTech said he has plans for adding 262 at some point.

Was quite a while ago though  

[SnakeEyes]

Whoopie.    The moment they add the 262, I'll be taking my business elsewhere.  And it's not because a Mustang can't outrun it... it's because the only thing that can effectively fight a jet is another jet.  The moment jets are introduced, effective plane choices get reduced from X (where X is > 1) to 1.

I'd much rather see latewar uberbirds (with props) before seeing even one jet.

There was nothing to necessarily indicate that the 262 was a failure.  However, there's alot of evidence (including its dismal kill record) that indicates that the Me163 was a failure.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[StormMaster]

Gritz,

In reply to your query about the first combat Me 262 kill, you may be surprised to learn that the B-17 earns the honors here.

The first known combat loss of a Me 262 came on July 18, 1944.  The pilot, Hauptman Werner Thierfelder of EKDO 262 was killed in the engagement. He was flying a Me 262 S6 (Wnr. 130011) near Landsberg when he fell victim to the .50s of American bombers.

Although the Me 262 proved incredibly difficult to hit, it could not sustain very much damage ... especially to the temperamental engines.

[bod]

A lot? (at least some amount) of 262s were built in Checkoslovakia right after the war. If you take a trip to the airplane museum near Prague you can see one of them.

Bod

[MiG Eater]

What the heck, give them the Me-262's.  Also, give them the extremely low engine reliability.  Give them the cannons that jammed under even moderate G's.  Make them fly the engines rather than the airplane to prevent flameouts.  Give 'em bombs without the ability to dive bomb due to the (too) rapid increase in speed during a dive and the absence of dive brakes.  Let them experience nose gear failures from all but the best landings and ground handling.  Don't forget the excessively long paved/concrete runways that would have to be located far from the action.  Last give them this fuel thirsty airplane that would require a 100% load just to take off, climb to alt, engage a threat, then quickly land before becoming a glider.  Sorry, don't mean to sound like I don't want Me-262's.  In the right hands, it could be killer but without the high skill needed to manage all of its peculiarities it might prove more deadly to its pilots than its enemies.  It'll be great for scenerios, no doubt.  I'd hate to see it become the dweeb plane of choice.

Where are the new-build Me-262's and a two seat trainer restoration?    Right here in Everett, WA!    Love this plane... http://www.avphoto.com/stormbird/
(please be patient, graphics intensive)

[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 11-29-1999).]

[This message has been edited by MiG Eater (edited 11-29-1999).]

[Hristo]

I wonder why Allied even bothered to ship 262s to US (opration Lusty), if they were worth crap. Or maybe they weren't as arrogant as some posters on this thread ?



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-30-1999).]