Author Topic: La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical  (Read 261 times)

Offline Vermillion

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« on: October 19, 1999, 11:13:00 AM »
Started flying the La5 alot over the weekend, and I thought I would post my opinons on how it is modeled since it is a pretty rare aircraft in the arena and few fly in enough to get really familiar with it. And even fewer tend to post here with any information.

I have charts on the La5 for max IAS vs alt, climb vs alt, and max degrees turn/sec vs alt. And from the testing I have done, the FM seems to match these very closely.

However, I am having quite a problem using the La5 in its historic manner.  

Everything I have ever read indicated that the La5 was typically fought as an E-Fighter, primarily in the vertical. Now this is my chosen style of flying in both AW and WB's, and I have no problem using it in AH with either the Spitfire or the Me109, so I don't think its a lack of experience thats causing my problems.

But I seem to have extreme problems getting the La5 "over the top" smoothly in combat. I have tried flaps and no flaps, neither with success.  It also seems quite "mushy" in hi yo-yo's, hammerheads, and chandelle's.

It seems that when the angle of attack exceeds around 30 or 40 degrees, the plane starts to burn excessive amounts of E (more than I would expect in comparison to other aircraft).

A secondary, but exacerbating problem, is the acceleration. It is much lower than I would expect, but I have no hard data on it. Again when fighting this aircraft in the vertical, after I come over the top I can point my nose straight down losing between 4k-6k in altitude, and I gain very little airspeed (again in comparison to Spit and 109).

So I gain less altitude than I expect in positive vertical moves, and lose more altitude in the negative to regain airspeed, thereby giving up my advantage much more rapidly than I would expect.

Sorry I don't have hard data on this Pyro (acceleration/drag numbers being quite hard for us peons to obtain   ), but to me the La5 just seems to be slightly off when I try to fly it historically.

Has any other La5 pilots had more success than me? Am I missing something?

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland


Offline Flathat

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 1999, 01:25:00 PM »
La-5 has flaps? D'oh!  

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Flathat
'Black Dahlia'
No10 RNAS "The Black Flight"
Angel on your wing, devil on your tail


funked

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 1999, 12:48:00 AM »
"It seems that when the angle of attack exceeds around 30 or 40 degrees, the plane starts to burn excessive amounts of E (more than I would expect in comparison to other aircraft)."

If you are pulling 30 or 40 degree AoA you can expect massive induced drag.  Actually in a WW2 fighter this is post-stall.  Do you mean 30 or 40 degrees above the horizon?

If the climb rate and top speed checks out OK, so should the vertical performance.  In a perfect zoom (zero normal gees) the performance is a function only of thrust, weight, and parasitic drag.

Offline leonid

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 1999, 03:37:00 AM »
Vermillion:
I know I don't have all the answers, but I have flown the La-5FN almost exclusively since playing on AH.  Personally, I find the fighter quite within my perception of what it should have been like.  The only hard data I have on vertical and horizontal speeds vs. altitude is of the La-7.  However, in one of my books on Soviet fighters I found the following: a La-5F doing a combat turn would expect to gain about 975m.  The La-7 would gain anywhere from 1005-1220m.  The La-5FN would probably be closer to the La-7 in performance, since they both had the same engine.

As for my perception of the aircraft:

o given a little alt, the La-5FN can maintain a superior position against any of the aircraft up until about 20k.

o I have been able to pull away from all aircraft during the first minute, given that I started with at least equal E and didn't give my opponents too much height.  In fact, by keeping my opponents slightly below me and engaging WEP, I've even pulled away from Bf109G-10s for the first minute or so.  After that time has passed faster aircraft begin to gain, but slowly.

o The La-5FN does get mushy at low speed, but really hates to stall unexpectedly.  I've done numerous snap rolls on the deck at 150 IAS without mishap.  I have been told by Granger that the La-5FN has a higher stall speed than the P-51, but I want to test that out before making any conclusions.  Certainly, at speed it is no problem to turn inside a 51, or a 109.

o This aircraft is tough and durable.  I've been raked so badly by enemy aircraft that it seemed for sure I was goner, yet somehow she stayed intact, many times without serious damage.  Maybe its because of all that wood, but historically it was a tough plane too.

o The ShVAKs get the job done.

o The field of vision is excellent.

Vermillion, I've always been an e-fighter as well.  In WB I was always frustrated by the Yak-3s lack of offensive punch, but the La-5FN seems to fill that gap quite handily.  Nowadays, I just try to hold superior position then wait for the mistake and pounce - but always to hold the position.  One has to remember that with the exception of the Spitfire IX (a fabulously designed aircraft - genius really), the other two fighters are late war aircraft.  The La-5FN was an early to mid-war fighter, coming out about the time of the battle of Kursk.  It should be very interesting to see how the La-7 will do when/if it makes its debut here  

Edited this last note - Verm, I don't use hammerheads, but I do use combat turns (like a chandelle, where after the turn you hold the height gained) and hi and lo yo-yos.  Oh jeez, it just hit me!  I fly the La-5FN like a 109!  A long time ago I flew the 109K in WB as -batu-.  Always loved that form of aircombat.  The hi lazy stoop, then the bounce, followed by another hi lazy stoop.  Usually I wait for the enemy to shoot their wad trying to reach me, then pounce on them as they stall.  Exactly what I used to do in the 109.  Man, when the Soviets built this plane to beat the 109, they beat it by its own game!  What a revelation!

Verm, fly it like a 109.  I do.  It works.


[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 10-20-1999).]
ingame: Raz

Offline Vermillion

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 1999, 07:05:00 AM »
funked:

Yes, I meant 30 or 40 degrees above the horizon.

Leonid:

I do fly it like the 109  

And I agree that its a respectable bird versus the 109 and Pony. I too like the low speed stability and its incredible roll rate. In fact, I have learned that you can easily beat both 109's and Pony's in rolling scissors on the deck with the La5. And usually reverse on them and kill them.

But unfortunately I have fought Spitfire after Spitfire that I come into the fight with plenty of E advantage(+5K alt), and after two passes the damn spit has an E advantage on me, and then its over. Can't outrun him, can't outturn him, and he maintains (or gains E almost) in the vertical so much better than me that its hopeless. Well, at least if the enemy is halfway good it is.  

And we all know that your fighting Spits much more than any other aircraft in the arena.

Admittedly I became so frustrated with it yesterday, I decided to give up the La5 and join the hordes of Spitfires myself    Guess I will just have to wait for the N1K2.

It just feels to me that the La5 performs much more like a Pony in the vertical manuevers, than like a 109 or Spitfire type of characterisitics that I would expect.

Just my opinon  

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), *MOL*, Men of Leisure, Goldlandia
AW's: (verm) ACCS, Aerial Crowd Control Services, Cland


Offline leonid

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La-5fn seems "off" in the Vertical
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 1999, 08:08:00 AM »
So your troubles are with the spits.  I see.  Two nights ago I was all alone over F7 and below me were about 5 hostile spits.  Another was a little below(-1-3k) me but a ways off.  I think we were at somewhere between 10-20k alt.  That nearly coalt spit and I kept fighting for position, pass after pass, but I never let him have the hi ground.  It wasn't difficult really.  I just had to keep my priorities straight.  With a den of spits all low and waiting, and this one spit vying with me for a shot, my only real option was to deny the highest spit the position.  He kept trying too.  I flew for the position, and if he presented a shot that allowed me to keep the position, then I would take it.  But he was pretty good and never did.  I was hoping some buddies would show up and feast on all the low spits, but it never happened.  Finally, at a 1/4 tank I made one more pass going north and never reversed.  Landed F21, np.

When I have been dusted by spits is when diving at excessive speed (which is real easy to do in a La-5), making a vertical gun pass just as the spit was pitching up radically.  Result would be instantaneous: I was now low and that spit was hi, and since I was diving so fast I couldn't pitch up in time to keep our alt difference from getting too great.  That spit would just pull thru the top then WEP down at me who had nowhere to go, since we were at 10k to begin with, and now I was on the deck.

I try to avoid hi speed hi vert attacks unless the target has stalled.  Otherwise, I keep my angle of attack from becoming too steep, and always stay above until I have a gun solution when I like to get below their 6-view, but fast.  Trick for me is to always keep my vector in a direction that will keep me above my target.

If you want to fly together a bit let me know.  I'd be glad to help.
ingame: Raz