Author Topic: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight  (Read 1772 times)

Offline W7LPNRICK

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2050
      • Ham Radio Antenna Experiments
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2009, 02:52:29 PM »
This is probabaly the plane they were referring to.

(Image removed from quote.)
ZOOM ZOOM!


ack-ack

Yup! That's it.   :rock
WildWzl
Ft Bragg Jump School-USAF Kunsan AB, Korea- Clark AB P.I.- Korat, Thailand-Tinker AFB Ok.- Mtn Home AFB Idaho
F-86's, F-4D, F-4G, F-5E Tiger II, C-130, UH-1N (Twin Engine Hueys) O-2's. E3A awacs, F-111, FB-111, EF-111,

Offline W7LPNRICK

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2050
      • Ham Radio Antenna Experiments
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2009, 02:55:21 PM »
 :banana: duplicate post
WildWzl
Ft Bragg Jump School-USAF Kunsan AB, Korea- Clark AB P.I.- Korat, Thailand-Tinker AFB Ok.- Mtn Home AFB Idaho
F-86's, F-4D, F-4G, F-5E Tiger II, C-130, UH-1N (Twin Engine Hueys) O-2's. E3A awacs, F-111, FB-111, EF-111,

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26801
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2009, 02:57:07 PM »
:banana: duplicate post

First one I have seen since Skuzzy's work the other day.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline TheBug

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5652
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2009, 04:33:34 PM »
First one I have seen since Skuzzy's work the other day.

Work???  Probably was like a vacation for him not having to play baby-sitter.   :)
“It's a big ocean, you don't have to find the enemy if you don't want to."
  -Richard O'Kane

Offline Shuffler

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 26801
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2009, 04:35:37 PM »
Work???  Probably was like a vacation for him not having to play baby-sitter.   :)

HA... yup looking at it that way he figured it was a few hours of posts he did not have to police.


I've only had a couple of small hiccups since the maintenance though. Much better now.
80th FS "Headhunters"

S.A.P.P.- Secret Association Of P-38 Pilots (Lightning In A Bottle)

Offline SKJohn

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 792
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2009, 05:07:58 PM »
anyone remeber that episode of dogfights when they said p-51 was armed wit 6 50mm guns? or was that some other documentary? :D

I'm sorry, but that version of the P-51 would defintely have to be perked. :huh

Offline Stiglr

  • Persona non grata
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2009, 07:03:00 PM »
"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.

Offline SectorNine50

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1331
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2009, 03:20:39 AM »
"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.
A lot of it isn't necessarily that they didn't check facts, it's that the transfer from research to script writer to narrator often gets messed up.  Also, imagine reading 7.7mm 12.7mm then jumping to 50cal; probably pretty easy to misspeak something like that.
I'm Sector95 in-game! :-D

Offline Stiglr

  • Persona non grata
  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 112
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2009, 11:20:35 AM »
That's no excuse. A narrator is a professional (or, should be) and they're responsible for speaking clearly and understanding the terms they're reading. I've seen good ones at work, and they ask questions before they go in front of the mic and then knock it stiff with one take.  It's likely that the writers had the mistakes in the copy, and the narrator just dutifully read them.

You'd think the writer or historian would know that 12.7mm = .50 cal, and be knowledgeable on the various aircraft and their capabilities. They simply get it wrong from time to time, that's all.

And it's not just this show... I've seen others on History Channel where they get things wrong, particularly in the gun packages.


Offline W7LPNRICK

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2050
      • Ham Radio Antenna Experiments
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2009, 03:32:40 PM »
The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.
WildWzl
Ft Bragg Jump School-USAF Kunsan AB, Korea- Clark AB P.I.- Korat, Thailand-Tinker AFB Ok.- Mtn Home AFB Idaho
F-86's, F-4D, F-4G, F-5E Tiger II, C-130, UH-1N (Twin Engine Hueys) O-2's. E3A awacs, F-111, FB-111, EF-111,

Offline Ack-Ack

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 25260
      • FlameWarriors
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2009, 04:32:19 PM »
The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.

That was Old 666, which much to the surprise of the Japanese that day, was the most heavily armed B-17 in the Pacific with no less than 19 .50 cal machine guns, including a pair that was able to be fired by the pilot.  They placed machine guns all over the place, including in spots where they didn't need any coverage.  They also stored replacement machine guns in the plane so if one gun jammed they could dump it and replace it with one of the spares.

On a side note, for those that think that heavy bombers never flew NOE, Old 666 made a bomb run on a Japanese carrier and was only 50ft above the carriers deck when it flew over.  In another raid, this time a day time raid over Rabuel, Old 666 was so low that it came home with branches from the tree tops it skimmed over stuck in various areas on the bomber's belly and the ball turret had one of the glass panes cracked from a tree strike on that mission.  On a night time attack on Wewak, Old 666 dove on and strafed the searchlights the Japanese used to locate the attacking bombers.

Sadly, not even the book that I have about the 5th AF has any pictures of Old 666 and can't seem to locate any at all searching the Intertardnet. 

One another interesting side note, no one wanted to fly with Lt. Col Zeamer, that's why before Old 666, he didn't have an assigned plane or crew and was considered a "pilot at large" but was never actually a pilot.  In fact, he was the most senior non pilot in the bomber group.  He never passed the checks to move from the co-pilot seat to the pilot seat, he failed on each attempt when he was assigned to the 22nd BG flying B-26s.  Pilots hated to have him in the co-pilot seat and was soon transferred out of the 22nd because of this.  When he was transferred to the 43rd BG, he as given odd jobs, when a crew was short he'd fill in but never as pilot.  It wasn't until a friend of his, Captain McCullar, took Zeamer under his wing and allowed him to join his crew sometimes as navigator and co-pilot.  For some reason, flying with McCullar really clicked with Zeamer and studying what McCullar did in the cockpit during some pretty harrowing missions.  After a handful of missions with McCullar's crew, Zeamer was finally ready to get a plane and crew of his own.  It was also McCullar that inspired Zeamer to outfit his bomber with all of those guns and the pilot operated guns also came from McCullan who had his own B-17 outfitted the same way.  After Zeamer got his own plane and crew and after the mission where he was attacked by all of those Zekes, he became widely known as one of the first and very few that would fly their heavy bombers like fighters.


ack-ack
"If Jesus came back as an airplane, he would be a P-38." - WW2 P-38 pilot
Elite Top Aces +1 Mexican Official Squadron Song

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2009, 07:39:45 PM »
Showing war in the pacific. Navy SBD's escorted by USM F-4F wildcats against Japanese KI-43 Oscars, P float planes, & KI-72 bombers. Were these Japanese planes common? Any plans for float planes like Japanese "P" or USN PBY? They Claimed the Oscars were very maneuverable. It did well against the F-4F.
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight


Wait.... Let me guess.....
They did Head on.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2009, 07:41:53 PM »
"Dogfight!" (in fact, most History Channel and Military Channel productions ) often makes mistakes in their productions, so I'd take any fact with a grain of salt. Overall, you get an interesting view on some classic engagements... and some nice footage... but fact for fact, I'd always be suspicious. They're not much for fact-checking.

And Remember. You almost always getting only one side of the story.

I'd love to see them do a few shows featuring German and Jap. pilots.
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2009, 07:49:15 PM »
The episode I watched last night had a bunch of guys in B-17 that were kinda like black sheep. They never got new planes, I don't remember why. I think the commander was on someones Sh-t list. Anyway, they scavenged an old B-17 from the scrap yard, added a bunch of guns from their presious B-17 (now wore out), making the heaviest armed recon aircraft in the pacific. They added a nose gun for the pilot as well. 17 machine guns I think. As luck would have it they flew into a flight of about 20 Zero's took out a bunch of them, lost some very heroic gunners, who were still shooting their guns when they bled to death. The Capt had a wrist shot off and plexiglass in his thigh & still flew it home. Tail # was 666.

I seem to remember the end of an old WWII movie that ended that way. Or something similar
Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty

Offline DREDIOCK

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 17773
Re: Watching History Channel's Dog Fight
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2009, 08:03:01 PM »


Numerous reports of the plane sustaining heavy battle damage, with engines missing, parts being blown away and even mid-air collisions and yet returning her crews home safely have all added to the legendary status of the B-17. In June of 1943 in the Pacific, a B-17 named Old 666 was attacked by 17 Japanese Zero fighters and in a running battle survived, downing four of the attacking fighters. For their courage and bravery, the entire crew was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross while her captain and another crewmember received the country’s highest award, The Congressional Medal of Honor. During the course of the war, a total of 17 Medal of Honor’s were awarded to crewmembers of B-17s.



Death is no easy answer
For those who wish to know
Ask those who have been before you
What fate the future holds
It ain't pretty