Grumman G-51

[Nath-BDP]

Aka F7F 'Tigercat',

Perhaps one of the best twin engine fighters of the war, the F7F was the first carrierborne twin engined warplane to see service in the US Navy, a massive armarment of 4 20mm Hispano M2s in the wing leading edges and four 12.7 mm Browning M2s in the nose and performance even with, if not superior to the P-38.  Also able to carry up to 4,000 of disposable stores(same as P38) and a range of 1,900 miles with DT and 1,200 with internal fuel.  The Tigercat had excellent handling characteristics and very good manueverablity for a twin engined fighter but wasn't successfull as a carrierborne fighter and was removed for operation with the U.S. Marines and as a night-fighter.

Now for the numbers:

Max speed; 450 mph at 21,500 feet declining to 367 mph at sea level.

Climb; 6,040 feet per min at sea level.  
Service ceiling 40,700 ft.


F7F is a good alternative to the P38 which we've already seen in most WW 2 Flight sims, and perhaps will be considered as the next U.S. a/c in AH.

Thanks,
Nath29

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"Then I played the trump. The Spitfire was clawing wildly through the air, trying to follow me in a roll, when I dropped the nose. The Thunderbolt howled and ran for earth. Barely had the Spitfire started to follow--and I was a long way ahead of him by now--when I jerked back on the stick and threw the Jug into a zoom climb. In a straight or turning climn, the British ship had the advantage. But coming out of a dive, there's not a British or a German fighter that can come close to a Thunderbolt rushing upward in a zoom. Before the Spit pilot knew what had happened, I was high above him, the Thunderbolt hammering around. And that was it--for in the next few moments the Spitfire flier was amazed to see a less maneuverable, slow-climbing Thunderbolt rushing straight at him, eight guns pointed ominously at his cockpit."

[spinny]

Well, here comes the deluge...but...the thing never saw combat.

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Spinny, VF-17
8X

[Nath-BDP]

It was still delivered to operational US Marine Corp. Squads (VMF-911 and VMF(n)-531) in the summer of '44.

P.S. sick of the P38 ;O

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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.

[Windle]

I'll bet a buck those squads were still based on the US mainland too. If the Tigercat was operating in squad strength a year before the war ended it definately would have been a part of Task Force 58 during 1945 when the Navy assembled all they had available for the final move on the Japanese mainland. Hell, the F4U-4 even made it to the combat area by April of 1945 and the first production model didn't clear the factory floor until October 31, 1944!  Where the hell were all these active mid-1944 Tigercat squadrons during this time?  Again, if they existed at all, my bet is that they were stateside testing units.

Also, can someone prove to me that VMF(N)-531 existed prior to the end of WWII?  I always thought of it primarily as a Korean War squadron.

   

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~Lt. Jg. Windle~

VF-17 The Jolly Rogers 8X
        Skychrgr@aol.com      


[This message has been edited by Windle (edited 11-10-1999).]

[Nath-BDP]

They we're both based in Okinawa and the tigercat reached those squads a day before the war ended, the F7F also never saw carrierborne operations and then only little after the war's end even though it was designed for such duties.

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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.

[Vermillion]

Ahhhh Nath, but can you prove they flew any combat sorties in that one day?  

If so you might just have your case on a technicality  



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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Nath-BDP]

No, I know that they never flew any combat sorties, as I agreed with the guy above, but they did reach squads.

[funked]

Well if "delivered to operational squadrons" is all that is required, look out for the Fw 190D-12, Ta 152, Ar 234, Me 262, Me 163, and the He 162.  The He 162 in particular would absolutely rule the arena.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-10-1999).]

[Nath-BDP]

As I said, its just something to think about besides the P38...

And by the way do you realize the Ta 152 would suck at low alts, where most fights take place? Better like running.
Lol, I could just picture it, a Ta 152 with a 42 foot wingspan and 52lb/sq ft wing loading trying to TnB, nice, fat, target. Btw, Ta 152 doesn't climb any better than the A series, all it has is speed and high alt performance. :0
Now if AH was an actual reinactment of WW 2(which it should be), bring all those on.

P.S. I realize there were variants with shorter wings to improve low and medium alt performance, but the H-1 and HO (long winged versions) is the only one that saw service, the difference between them, the H-1 having an enlarged fuel capacity.  Im all for the Ta 152 but I think other planes should get priority first, especially when this isn't a historical reinactment of WW 2 European aerial combat.


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"Mölders made me what I am today." - Helmut Wick, JG 2, 56 kills.

[funked]

I don't think any of these planes should be a priority.  We need planes that fought in the war, and in significant numbers.

BTW I have 10,472 normal loaded and 250.8 sq. ft for the Ta 152H-1.

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 11-10-1999).]

[fats]

Aircraft Monograph Fw 190D Ta 152:

Fw 190D-9
Wing Area: 18.30 m**3
Max. TO: 4270 kg
Speed ( sea level ): 580 km/h with MW 50
ROC ( sea level ): 16.0 m/s
Time to Alt: 17.7 s/10000 m
Service Ceiling: 11100 m
Take off Run: 440 m

Ta 152H-0
Wing Area: 19.5 m**3
Max. TO: 4727 kg
Speed ( sea level ): - km/h
ROC ( sea level ): - m/s
Time to Alt: -/-
Service Ceiling: - m
Take off Run: - m

Ta 152H-1
Wing Area: 23.5 m**3
Max. TO: 5217 kg
Speed ( sea level ): 536 km/h
ROC ( sea level ): 14.2 m/s, 17.5 m/s with MW 50
Time to Alt: 13.3 s/10000 m, 11.7 s/10000 with MW 50
Service Ceiling: 13500 m, 14800 m with GM 1
Take off Run: 600 m, 265 m with MW 50


The book doesn't list a lot of values for the H-0. Most interesting are the H-1 figures with out and with MW 50 and the GM 1 ceiling. MW 50 cuts the take off run in less than half and the cervice ceiling is 48500 ft with GM 1! Now that's high?


//fats

[fats]

Thought I'd post some conversion figures cause some of you yanks prolly aren't using metric system _yet_?

1 mile = 1609,344 meters
1 meter = 3.280834... feet
1 kilogram = 2.204623... lbs


//fats

[Hristo]

Ta-152H-1

Wing area: 252.95 sq ft
Empty weight: 8642 lb -> 34.16 lb / sq ft
Max weight: 10472 lb -> 41.40 lb / sq ft
MAx weight (given by fats): 5217 kg = 11502 lb -> 45.47 lb / sq ft
   http://www.topedge.com/panels/aircraft/sites/gustin/ger/TA152FOC.html  


P-51D

Wing area: 233.19 sq ft
Empty weight: 7635 lb -> 32.74 lb/ sq ft
Normal TO weight : 10100 lb -> 43.31 lb/sq ft
Max weight: 12100 lb -> 51.89 lb/sq ft
    http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51specs.htm    


F7F Tigercat

Wing area: 455 sq ft
Empty weight: 16 270 lb  -> 35.76 lb/sq ft
Gross weight: 25 720 lb  -> 56.53 lb/ sq ft

    http://www.rels.com/ag1caf/usplanes/aircraft/tigercat.htm    

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]

[Hristo]

Damn, now those late war designs took over me as well  

Seems that Ar-234 was mentioned before. And it appeeared in 1944. And it saw combat. And 274 were built, according to Gustin's page.

Any info of where and when exactly they were used ?

Don't get me wrong, I am not lobbying for it, I am just curious  

Yes, funked, anything goes policy would surely benefit LW rather than Allies. Their main weapon was quantity anyway.

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders

[Nath-BDP]

Well, the H-O was simply a pre-production a/c
designed to for other "sub" varients, The Ta 152H-O/R11, all-weather fighter with LGW K 23 navigation system FuG 125 Hermine Direction-finding system, The Ta 152H-O/R21 with with an otherwise standard GM-1 nitrus oxide power boost system removed(the Ta 152 H-1 never had these removed, it was the H-O),
and the Ta 152H-O/R31, with an enlarged oxide capacity for the GM 1 system.

P.S. Yes, Hristo, quanity of planes that owned everything the Germans had  

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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"