Grumman G-51

[Hristo]

So, Nath, what are you trying to say in this thread anyway ?

1. That we need Tigercat ?

We don't. It never served in combat. And it would not be superior to some planes already modeled. Neither we need wonder planes, including Ta 152 (that one saw combat though). Stick to the planes we have, learn to enjoy them.


2. That whole Ta 152 reputation and known data is just bogus ?

Hardly so, I think you know it too.


3. That any airforce in the world had more sophisticated fighter planes than Luftwaffe had ?

Me 262, Me 163, He 162, Ar 234, Ta 152 or Do 335 are really way ahead of the enemies they faced or might have faced. Quantity is hard to model in AH. So every Bearcat/Tigercat/Ubercat has to know that LW would benefit more from all late war monsters modeled.

But please, stop that Uber plane crying for once (not you Nath, I mean everyone). Fly planes we have already, fly them against their historical opponents, and you might find AH great fun. Late war what-if planes just open one big can of worms.

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]

[Nath-BDP]

2. That whole Ta 152 reputation and known data is just bogus ?  

Please elaborate on this, are you saying my data isn't accurate?

Only reason I started this thread is it give the people something to think about besides the P38, wasn't intended to start a flame war.

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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[Nath-BDP]

Also what I was saying is, the Allied planes were superior to what the Germans had in QUANITY, aka 190 A and 109 G and K.

[Hristo]

Wrong data is in post no. 9, in this same thread, and it is far off. Posts below have corrections on data you gave, but you seem to have neglected them.  No Ta 152 had such high wingloading.

 
Also, 109G-10 or 109K are more than a match for Allied planes found in quantity, IMHO (speaking mostly from HTH WB experience, and 1 month of AH arena).

Now, start flying that 109, you are JG member after all. No more Tempest advocating when I ask for Dora, no more Tigercat what-if SF.


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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders



[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 11-11-1999).]

[Vermillion]

This is hardly what I would call conclusive evidence.

But the tour guide at the Garber Facility (storage facility for the Air & Space musuem, which actually holds more aircraft than the musuem itself), told us that the Arado Blitz Bomber as mainly used for "terror" raids against England late in the war.

Hit and Run style operations consisting of a couple of planes down to a single plane. Where they come in at high speed over targets like London, drop their ordinance, and then run like hell, back to Germany.

Maybe someone else has more info.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Nath-BDP]

Hristo, Hristo, Hristo....

I'm speaking from historical data not just Flight Sim modeling.  And, no offense but I will post what I like not just about Luftwaffe fighters, and don't assume about what I fly, I fly 109 50% of the time, I dont just fly one plane all the time. Too boring.  

P.S. That 52lb/sq ft wing loading was a joke, due to its large wingspan, obviously no one got it. Btw, Germans already have another fighter coming, the 190, we need a new Brit A/c, so I'll advocate for a Tempest.

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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[Hristo]

Historical data is a wide range of data. It is mostly anecdotal. You can't value performance of 109K, for example, by analyzing its combat records where it was vulched and fought against 5:1 odds, with inexperienced pilots behind the controls.

P-51D K/D record of 19:1 does not mean it was 19 times better than regular LW planes from the era.

No such data describes situation setup in which a plane was shot down.

What counts are real numbers, obtained by flight tests, and used in accurate modeling, which I believe we have now in AH.

So, in 1990s, I think AH and WB give us more detailed look in what those planes could and couldn't do.

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders

[Westy]

The only thing the Germans really had a lead on  at the closing days of WWII was
jets: Me 262, Me 163, He 162, Ar 234.

The  Ta 152 or Do 335 would have been eaten up alive by the P47M's and P51H's let alone
the P82 that was just shipping to squadrons.

The BIG difference is the Germans and the Japanese HAD to push and push becuase they were against the ropes.
The Allies did not because what they had was
superior from 1943 into late 1944 and it was
NOT necesary and a matter of survival to push out the door what ever thier engineers could
develop.
 
All sides were pushing the envelope of the prop plane. All sides were developing them from slightly different perspectives too.
 The US was developing air superiority fighters like the P47M, the P51H , the F8F,
the F2G Corsair and the P82. And not to forget to mention that the P80 WAS in the MED theatre in small numbers (very small) doing lame bellybutton "war" patrols and base visits to give the troops a bolster by saying 'we had a jet' too.
 By late 44 and 45 the Germans and Japanese were focusing primarily on HIGH alt buff killers. The 190-D, the TA-152 and the Do-335 were meant to be high alt buff killers. The
DO-335 was developed specifically in response to counter the B-29 that was expected to fly the skies over the Fatherland.
They were NOT built as air superiority fighters. I'm not saying they would not be as bad as the ME-110's against Spitfires but the
Spit XVI, Tempest V MKII, P47M etc.... would
have ripped them apart had the war gone later into 1945 and maybe into 1946.
 But then the ME262 and HE 162 would have been the real killers...

--Westy
 

[Hristo]

Exactly, Westy.

Although we slightly disagree about Ta 152 and Do 335.

German constructors were making compromises to make better bomber killers at the end of the war. Who knows how good would late war 190 really be, if not burdened with bomber killer configuration. Same with rest of the planes.

Still, 109 can really give decent 1 vs 1 fight to just about anything Allies had at the time. And win, of course  

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Hristo,
I/JG 51

Jagdgeschwader 51  Mölders

[Nath-BDP]

Tempest V mk II never saw service during WW 2, only after did it with No. 54 squadron, 450 were built.

Only Tempest to see service was the Mk V.

The D-9 was never specifically designed to "shoot down bombers." It first saw service with III/JG 54 which was issued to protect the base on which "Kommando Nowotny"(first operational unit to equip with the 262) was based as it worked up to operational numbers with the Me 262.  "Kommando Nowotny" was of course led by Maj. Walter "Nowi" Nowotny, this units total tally was 18 enemy a/c shot down with a loss of 26 Me 262s, most of them in accidents.  On a day that Adolf Galland was visiting this base, Galland questioned Nowotny's leadership abilities and told him to stay on the ground and lead the operations.  "Nowi" with his feelings hurt disobeyed the order, when incoming bombers reported, he took of, even with his me 262 having engine trouble.  He managed to shoot down 2 B 24s. His last words heard over the radio were, "I'm burning! My God, my god!", his plane fell vertical and crashed, thus ending the unsuccessfull life of "Kommando Nowotny."



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1./Jagdgeshwader 51 "Mölders"

[funked]

I agree, the jets would be the nasty ones.  Don't underestimate the Ta 152C or H though.  Only the P-51H (of the prop planes you mentioned) was faster.

P-80 and Meteor vs. Me 262 and He 162 and Ar 234 would be a lot of fun!!!

[-lynx-]

Jesus guys you remind me of those crap Discovery channels with so called WWII aviation "experts" and "professors" whining about what impact 262s and such like would have had on the outcome. What nonsense!

In most cases the best fighter was the one that was:
a. performing OK-ish;
b. reasonably cheap to manufacture hence available in numbers to the frontline units;
c. reliable and sturdy enough to perform/bring pilot home.

The only things that go for 262 are quad 30mms and top speed. If it was delivered in numbers it would have been destroyed faster than any other German fighter of the war when taking off/landing, lost through accidents/unreliable engines...

335? Ever thought of bailing out of that thing? Visibility in the back non-existent... Blah-blah-blah. "Great fighter"? No thanks...

What's the point if P47 was superior to P51 in performance/endurance if each P51 cost just a fraction of a massive bill for each Jug?

All late war German fighters were either designed or adapted for one purpose alone: to stop wave after wave of 17s, 24s and Lancs destroying what was left of West Germany.

If someone is salivating over Ta152 and such like he's either deluding himself or requires a fleet of B17 drones at 35,000 feet in close formation to enjoy flying that thing. Me262 in WB is a nuisance - not a factor. What makes you think that it would make any difference in AH?  


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-lynx-
13 Sqn RAF

[SnakeEyes]

You people are SO narrow-minded.

Frankly, I'm interested in flying any prop-driven aircraft that might be exciting, nuanced, or just plain fun to fly.  I don't give a rat's bellybutton whether it saw combat or not... if it was produced using the technology of the era, that's good enough for me.

All this nitpicking about how many sorties, or whether it saw combat or not, and whether it equipped operational squadrons, or how many examples of the aircraft actually took part in combat, etc., is just so much drivel.

Sheesh... some of you people couldn't expand your horizons even if your heads exploded.

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[indian]

This is a game if somebody wants a certian plane who cares its a game. This is not a reenactment of WWII we fight same plane on same plane so what difference does it make if a plane was built during WWII and we have good data on it, HT wants to model it then lets have it. IT IS A GAME based in the United States where everyone has freedom of speech. If you dont like someones opinion then dont read thread.

I want a F4U dont care what load out would like all options.

You cry for realism then lets have mechanical problems, lets have poor performance for the LW planes do to lack of good fuel, and by the way the Corsair one saw combat in europe patrolled over the sinking of that german battle ship up north. Didnt shoot nothing but still was flying in combat.


Yuo want to reenact WWII there is a game coming that is going to do that. This is aircombat where skill matters most plane is just that a plane it cant kill on its own.

[Pongo]

Wow quite a thread, I would say that people are a little off base on what the 152 could and did do in combat. While its use was very limited even at that late date in the war I believe that one pilot made ace in it. I would hope that there is room for planes like that in AH at some point. I would rather first see the planes that won and lost the war in 42-43.