Author Topic: test report of a La5-FNW  (Read 2697 times)

Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
test report of a La5-FNW
« on: April 17, 2000, 10:33:00 AM »
i found a german test report for a La5-FNW. Seems to be equal to a La5-FN. I try to translate it with my poor english

The test was done by H.W. Lerche, a test pilot for captured aircrafts at Rechlin (later, after the war  - together with Hanna Reitsch - a member of an american test pilot society)
The report is from March 1945, so i think when he talks of a 109 he means a G10, G14 or maybe even a K4

Commentaries from me in brackets{}
i don´t translate everything

start >>>>>

Summary:
The La5 is in comparison to the earlier russion fighter aircrafts very much improved. The performance below 10000ft is remarkable. The maximum speed is in every altitude lower than the max.speed of our fighters, the best climbrate is near the ground between the 109 and 190. The La-5 is especially for the 190 below 10000ft a dangerous enemy in a climb and turn. Deficiencies in some properties shouldn´t be a problem for russian pilots who are used to bad flight characteristics. The range is short, operation time is ~40min with combat power

Data:
"Rüstgewicht" (empty weight with some stuff already): 2773kg
fuel: 354kg
oil: 46kg
Ammunition: 94kg (2*200round)
pilot:80kg
=>Takeoff weight:  3347kg

wingspan: 9.80m
wingarea: 17.5m^2
wingloading: 191 kg/m^2
takeoff power: 1850PS

armour:
to the front: 57mm bullet-proof glas
to the back: 68mm bullet-proof glas for the head and 7mm armour {steel plate}

Performance:
combat power (cp): 1.36ata @2400min-1
emergency power (ep): 1.605ata @2500min-1

maxspeed with
ep @ 0km : 520kmh
cp @ 0km : 490kmh

ep @ 1km : 540kmh
cp @ 2,4km : 540kmh
cp @ 5km   : 560kmh
cp @ 6,5km : 540kmh

{The AH-La5 is faster}

climbrates with
cp (0-3km) : 16-17 m/s
cp (4km)   : 13m/s
cp (7km)   : 8-9m/s

service ceiling : 8-9km

It is not allowed to use emergency power when the supercharger is activated. The critical altitudes are so low, that the full emergency power can´t be achived in a climb or a horizontal flight with the use of the supercharger

The surface, especially from the wing, is good, the slats are fitted well into the wing.

Flight characteristics
....
The stability around the "Längsachse" {axis controlled with the elevator} is surpising good, even in a climb with full engine power.

Static direction-stability {huuu i hope you understand what i try to translate} is present with normal rudder forces, which dwindle very much in a slow flight. dynamic direction stability is weak, the damping is bad. Oscillations are reduced only slowly. But the oscillation time (at 450kmh in 2000m ~3sec) is not so short that a pilot can´t stop them immediatly.

The effectiveness of the aillerons is excellent. At 450kmh the rolltime is ~4sek.  600kmh is the limit where ailleron forces still allow quick "Ruderlegegeschwindigkeiten" {that means that you can push quickly your stick to the left or the right}

Slow Flight
At 210-200 kmh the Slats come out, the forces of the aillerons decrease. At 180kmh the rolldamping seems to disappear. If you pull your elevator harder now, the elevator forces disappear abrupt
{unfortunatly there are missing now some sentences in the report, where the author describes the bad behaviour of the La-5 in a slow turn}
In 2400m ... and 2.6g ^67°rollangle and 30sec circle.... "Überausgleich" is present {don´t know what überausgleich means, something that ailleron control disappear i think}.... the smallest circle times are ~ 28-30sek.
This means a minimum cirlcetime of ~25sec with emergency power in 1000m.


Tactical conclusions
The La5 is corresponding to the engine power designed for the fight in low altitudes. The max. speed is a little bit less near the ground compared to the 190 and 109 (both emergency power).
The 109 is with mw50 in all altitudes superior in max. speed and best climb. Accereration is supposed to be smiliar.

Circle times of the La5 are near the ground better than the 190 and WORSE {!!!!!} than the 109 {so circle time for the 109 is...20sek? 22sek? in AH- 26sek? }

In best climbrate the 190 is worse up to 3km, too. Due to more weight the 190 accelerates worse, but is superior in all situations where you push your elevator and in a flat escape with high speed.
Except for sudden evase manoevre is it corresponding to more weight and higher wingloading right to push the elevator, and to escape with a flat climb with high speed to reach a new position to attack. (La5 has best climb in a steeper angle), not to slow down and to avoid the turnfight, because
russian pilots who are used to bad flight-characteristics probable won´t be impressed by the described bad behaviour of the la5 in a turn.

<<<end

i hope that was interestig and my english not too bad

niklas

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2000, 03:03:00 PM »
Niklas
According to photos of this La-5 some expertens proved that it was La-5F (not La-5FN).
La-5F was equiped with M-82F carburetter engine, that time La-5FN was equiped with more powerful injector engine ASh-82FN and had max speed 645 km/h at 5000m alt. Newertheless La-5F had max speed about 600-610m/h at 5000m. The fact that max speed of captured La-5F was only 560 km/h can be explaind by the failure of its supercharger. (The same thing happened in NII-VVS when Russians tested captured Bf-109F in 1941 and measured it max speed as 562 km/h.)
At low alt the test data are in good accordance with actual La-5F data (supercharger has no effect at low alt).



Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2000, 07:21:00 AM »
Which Photo do you mean? From the book where i took the test report from? All Photos in this book aren´t from the planes that Lerche tested! Because it wasn´t allowed to take photos in Rechlin. So they used other Photos from other planes to give the reader a imagination how this plane looks like


niklas

Offline LLv34_Camouflage

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2000, 09:42:00 AM »
According to finnish pilots, the 109 G-2 had slightly better turning performance than the La-5.  In my few fights with Leonid I've noticed this to be the case in AH.

Camo



------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2000, 11:18:00 AM »
Niklas
I didn't see your book and photos.
But the info about La-5 Rechlin tests was discussed hardly in ru.aviation (fido) forum some time ago. They came to conclusion that it was La-5F.

BTW La5-FNW is unkown plane in Russia.
They were only La-5, La-5F and La-5FN

Camo
La-5 and La-5F were not good in turn but La-5FN was much better and could stay in turn even with 1 cannon Bf-109G2.

In AH turn fight between La-5FN and Bf-109G depends hardly on fuel loading.


Offline Pyro

  • Administrator
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 4020
      • http://www.hitechcreations.com
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2000, 05:19:00 PM »
Lerche's book was published in English and the test report you cite is included in the appendix.  



------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

Perfect plans, aren't.

Offline Oleg Maddox

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2000, 05:18:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -aper-:
Niklas
I didn't see your book and photos.
But the info about La-5 Rechlin tests was discussed hardly in ru.aviation (fido) forum some time ago. They came to conclusion that it was La-5F.

F - right.
That's not all. I have read original German description of these tests.
1. There was damaged(captured) and repaired by Germans plane. Some aerodynamic panels was absent, including such as covering panel of the right gear, etc.
2. The test were with not original fuel and oil. It is known that many of Russian engines have shown worse performance with the BETTER octan fuel.
3. Boost system 'Forsaze mode' was not working correct and wasn't tested at all.
4. Engine was in final stage of the common resouce.  
5. Some features wasn't tested at all (item 4). German test pilot did many comments with letal mistakes, which later were printed for Luftwaffe pilots and it is known which price Germans payed for these summary mistakes in La-5.

 
Quote
Originally posted by -aper-:

BTW La5-FNW is unkown plane in Russia.
They were only La-5, La-5F and La-5FN

  Right. As well as many sources mix LaGG and La names....

 
Quote
Originally posted by -aper-:

Camo
La-5 and La-5F were not good in turn but La-5FN was much better and could stay in turn even with 1 cannon Bf-109G2.

Agree.  And of course success depends of pilot experience  
Take a look, what is La-5FN or La-7 in good hands (4th replay)http:// [url=http://www.dogfighter.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000007.html]http://www.dogfighter.com/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000007.html[/url][/url]  

Oleg 'Mad' Maddox



[This message has been edited by Oleg Maddox (edited 04-21-2000).]

Offline Oleg Maddox

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2000, 07:47:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by niklas:
Circle times of the La5 are near the ground better than the 190 and WORSE {!!!!!} than the 109 {so circle time for the 109 is...20sek? 22sek? in AH- 26sek?   }

Really it was intersting to read.
The best circle times of German fighters had 109F-2,F-4 and G-2(3 guns) - others worse and some much worse.
At 1000 m altitude:
F-2 - left turn - 20,5 sec, right turn - 19,6 sec.
G-2(3 guns) - left turn - 20,0 sec, right turn - 21,5 sec.
La-5F -  left turn - 19,0 sec, right turn - 19,5 sec.
La-5FN - left turn - 18,5 sec, right turn - 19,0 sec.
La-7 - left turn - 18,3 sec, right turn - 18,9 sec.
LaGG-3(M-105P, 1941) left turn - 22,5 sec, right turn - 23,0 sec.
LaGG-3(M-105PF2, 1944) left turn - 19,0 sec, right turn - 20,1 sec.

Yak-3 had the best of all WWII fighters with such parameter.
All parameters with 50% fuel loaded.

Have not time to describe more. All above i have from trial docs, which at this moment I can't publish   All test parameters where with at least 10 planes of each type.

Of course, circle time is very important parameter of doghfight. But it depends of:
1. pilot body overloading
2. spin in this case, if the rudders had too big angle at this maneuvre. In this case the MiG-3 and Bf-109 were the most bad in this maneuvre.

Sorry, if my spelling isn't good.

But you can ask me questions on another forum:  http://www.dogfighter.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=IL-2+Sturmovik&number=6  



Offline niklas

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2000, 08:48:00 AM »
Thx for your replies. I must admit that ~560kmh top speed for a 1850PS fighter would be very bad

Oleg, where do you have the circle times for the german fighters from? Can you give me a source or mail me some documents? Thx!

niklas

Offline Oleg Maddox

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2000, 10:41:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by niklas:
Thx for your replies. I must admit that ~560kmh top speed for a 1850PS fighter would be very bad  

La-5 initial production:
Max speed at sea level: 558-560 km/h
Max speed at 6200-6250 m: 598-605 km/h
Note: Diferences in speed depends of the series

La-5F was on 20-30 km/h faster than La-5 at all altitudes.
La-5FN initial production:
Max speed at sea level: 595-605 km/h
Max speed at 6000 m: 645-655 km/h
La-7 initial production 3 cannons:
Max speed at sea level: 629-640 km/h
Max speed at 6000 m: 670-688 km/h
Note: two cannons modification was a bit faster.

Bf-109G-2(3 guns) - fastest on the low altitudes of all prop Messerschmitts:
Max speed at sea level: 520-530 km/h
Max speed at 7000 m: 660-668 km/h

G-6 had similar speeds if only 3 guns (without gun pods).
G-6/AS, G-10 and K-4 had much better performance at high altudes, because they  designed especially for that purpose. At sea level they even a bit worse than G-2 and G-6.

 
Quote
Originally posted by niklas:
Oleg, where do you have the circle times for the german fighters from? Can you give me a source or mail me some documents? Thx!

Read my e-mail to you, and my previous replies above. I also sent you the curves of trials, which you can post somewhere. Or here. They are from VERY CONFIRMED DOCS  

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2000, 11:36:00 AM »
Guess Oleg got the data from NII-VVS (Russian aircrafts-research centre) tests.

There are also several interesting results on the turn radius of different fighters tested in NII-VVS.

(in metres)

SpitfireIX  - 235m
P-40E       - 242m
P-39        - 253m
Yak-1       - 275m
Yak-9D      - 290m
Bf-109G2    - 290m
P-51A       - 290m
La-5FN      - 295m
La-5        - 310m
Bf-109G2/R6 - 315m
FW-190A4    - 340m



Offline LLv34_Camouflage

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2000, 04:51:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by Oleg Maddox:
The best circle times of German fighters had 109F-2,F-4 and G-2(3 guns) - others worse and some much worse.
At 1000 m altitude:
F-2 - left turn - 20,5 sec, right turn - 19,6 sec.
G-2(3 guns) - left turn - 20,0 sec, right turn - 21,5 sec.
La-5F -  left turn - 19,0 sec, right turn - 19,5 sec.
La-5FN - left turn - 18,5 sec, right turn - 19,0 sec.
La-7 - left turn - 18,3 sec, right turn - 18,9 sec.
LaGG-3(M-105P, 1941) left turn - 22,5 sec, right turn - 23,0 sec.
LaGG-3(M-105PF2, 1944) left turn - 19,0 sec, right turn - 20,1 sec.

You only have the time for the G-2 with extra gondolas.  I have the time for a single 20mm cannon here:

Taken from "Lentäjän Näkökulma 2" - "Pilot's Point of View 2", a book about the fighters the Finnish Air Force used in WW2:

"Pekka Kokko (FAF test pilot) did turning tests in the (Me 109 G-2) MT-215 with a stopwatch. At one kilometer's altitude, a 180 degree turn took 10 seconds. Starting speed was 450 km/h and end speed 380 km/h.  A full circle from the same starting speed took 18 seconds, the end speed being 330 km/h.  A constant 360 degree turn took 22 seconds at 360 km/h, with full throttle. Bank angle was 70 degrees and load 3 G's."

That 18 seconds is slightly less than any of the La-5's times posted by Oleg Maddox.  If we take into account the errors made in the measurement, I would say the planes' turning performance is quite equal.  Pilot skill becomes more important, just like Oleg said.  

But how come a F-2 turns worse than a G-2 with gun pods in that table!?

Camo

------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
 www.muodos.fi/LLv34

"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline -aper-

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 369
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #12 on: April 22, 2000, 05:42:00 AM »
Camo

According your data 18 seconds was not a sustained turn of Bf-109G2.

Here are sustained turns of Bf-109s from NII-VVS:

Bf-109B1 - 16,0 sec left; 15,9 sec right
Bf-109E3 - 26,5 sec left; 29,5 sec right
Bf-109F2 - 20,5 sec left; 19,6 sec right
Bf-109G2 - 20,0 sec left; 21,5 sec right
Bf-109G2/R6 - 22,6 sec left; 22,8 sec right


Offline LLv34_Camouflage

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2189
      • http://www.virtualpilots.fi/LLv34
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2000, 01:51:00 AM »
Yes, that 18 seconds is the time for just one circle. About continuous circles, quoting myself:"A constant 360 degree turn took 22 seconds at 360 km/h, with full throttle. Bank angle was 70 degrees and load 3 G's."

Replace "constant" with "continuous" and there you go!    I wonder where the 2 seconds went?  Maybe fuel load, alt?

Camo
CO, Lentolaivue 34
Brewster's in AH!
"How about the power to kill a Yak from 200 yards away - with mind bullets!"

Offline Oleg Maddox

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9
test report of a La5-FNW
« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2000, 03:55:00 AM »
Camo,

18 sec for clean Bf-109G-2 is possible with the flaps on 10 degrees. I this case pilot has big g-forces overloading and usual full turn isn't possible - 109 had the "feature" to spin wihtout the "prevention".

Most soviet figters also have smaller time of circle by using of flaps for that maneuvre. Experienced pilots used it often and it was easy for them than for 109. It's why German fighters tried to avoide of such battle manevres against Russian planes and often all their attacks to fighters was like a knife from the advantage altitude and then - go home.

-aper-,

Your right, I got many trial docs from NII VVS.

Sorry,
No time for discussions

If you like to ask me something, visit  http://www.dogfighter.com/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=IL-2+Sturmovik&number=6