I'm Trying to Remember How This Works

[bustr]

Last night in the DA I set myself up to fail by thinking the plane I was in could out turn the plane I was fighting. I pull this memory boner once in awhile. Ki84 vs. K4. I have full flaps out and turning left hand on the deck thinking the K4 with full flaps cannot follow me. I'm wrong. The DouH moment was after I asked the DouH question.

Answer: I was out turned by the K4 flying a faster bigger circle than the small slow circle my Ki84 with full flaps out was flying. I thought the Ki84 with full flaps and WEP would turn inside of the K4 eventualy even if I was being lagged.

Can someone explain this to me again. Is this something that is specific to the two aircraft involved relative engine power to weight ratio? Would the K4 have been able to fly the faster big circle against an A6M, spitI or spitV? I keep running into this against the K4 in the DA.

[stran]

film.





most likely the k4 wasn't flying a faster bigger circle, but a small slow circle similar to yours. or he cut across the circle and took a deflection shot. high yo-yo? better explanations come after the film release!

edit: and the ki-84 probably doesn't turn as well as you would like to believe. and the k4 has the powerful engine to pull it through a turn.

Would the K4 have been able to fly the faster big circle against an A6M, spitI or spitV?

[humble]

something is missing. The ki-84 with flaps out can turn a very tight circle compared to the K4. In fact both the spit and hog want to keep the fight up at 165+ so the ki can't get those flaps down.

[stroker71]

I would love to see a film of this! 

Are you sure the K4 wasn't using his better climb and more power to do yo-yo's while in lag pursuit?  If it was pure left hand on the deck turn ki should be able to turn inside the K4 all day long. 

DuHasst

[Agent360]

First, the KI84 does in fact turn better than a K4 and will in a sustained flat turn take the k4's six in about 4 or 5 turns.

However, there are some exceptions to this rule.

If the KIA4 becomes slow in the turn at stall speed with the flaps out and drops to less than 90 mph or less the K4 can lag pursuit in with a ruddered nose high (top rudder) all flaps with wep and sustain this...IF the k4 keeps a slight alt adv during the turn. This gives the k4 the ability to drop the nose slightly with rudder to cut the angle off as needed and still nose up for more lag. The key to this is the ability of the K4 to cross control controlling the nose while using the enormous engine power to stay in controlled flight. This is called "stomping the top rudder". Rudder bleeds energy BUT if your engine is powerful enoungh to keep the nose up then you can use a slight dropping and "pick up" of the nose in this kind of turn.

IF the KI84 is too fast the K4 can chop throttle and again rudder inside the same way for a nice shot...even though the KI84 is out turning the K4.

BUT

If the KI84 remains fast at around 200 mph or even better at 250 mph the KI84 can easily out turn a K4.

The key for the KI84 is to make a VERY VERY shallow diving flat turn forcing the k4 gently nose down. The KI84 goes to easy level flat turn for angles then noses slightly down again in the turn. The KI84 picks the nose up with rudder and then noses around more. The K4 CAN NOT sustain this type of turn. If the K4 chops for flaps and goes for a hard turn fight at this point it will take the KI84 about 2 or 3 turns to catch his six.

If you get very slow with a k4 cutting to your six you should use aggressive scissors...especially if you are in a better turning plane.

[prono]

WOW. This is magic for me.  I always turn nose up in Ki-84 to keep my flaps out.

[pervert]

Bustr had a look over my video of our fight the faster wider circle remark was meant for ardy and xray as we had been discussing it earlier, although that’s my fault for not looking who was speaking at the time sorry. Our fight was not an example of this.

The faster wider circle I was speaking about earlier is how I would out turn a spit or better turning plane over a number of sustained turns, I’ve started filming pretty much all my engagements now in the MA it seems since the update my PC doesn’t suffer from the stuttering I used to get.

As best as I can explain this from my POV the as I turn in behind the spit it will obviously start to outturn me, the spit will move away and up into my top canopy and I’ll start to gain angles for a near shot but usually never on the first revolution, as we both begin to lose e I’ll pop full flaps and wep and get the nose bounce going on the K4 even though the spit turns better I’m flying faster through my turn in an area of the circle that is impossible for him to get guns on me, it also looks to the spit because we are out of sync that every revolution I’m gaining at one point. The harder he pulls to try and get away from this or get guns the more e he loses and the easier it is for me to get a deflection shot on the next revolution, in extreme situations the spit pulls away all his airspeed straight away and is an easy quick kill.

No doubt someone on here will have a better technical definition, I explain things the way I see em. Once I’m finished making my 190d vids I’ll post an example of this and you guys can break it down properly.

I’ve included the vid here of our fight, I’d just finished 5-6 fights with ardy and was low on fuel and had hardly any ammo left.  I’ve also included the last fight with ardy that he wanted so you can see the throttle especially and flaps I use through the rolling scissors.

http://www.4shared.com/file/189033640/b01786bd/bustrardy.html