P-38J-L questions.

[Citabria]

wells...


the p38 props rotated:  left engine: counterclockwise, right engine: clockwise.


i used to think they rotated like a seminole too but they opposite normal rotation

[wells]

CC Citabria,

I didn't say any different.  

[Vermillion]

Jigster, here is what I was referring too.

Citabria wrote:  

p-38L is pretty neutered. it has always been an easy target in AH but now its even easier. its flaps dont give it a great increase in turn ability so it cant hang with any other aircraft at any speed in AH

Maverick wrote:  

<snip nice historical tactics discussion> For this reason and information it is my belief that the 38L is "undermodeled" and Citabria might just be right

Now, I'm not arguing that the stall characteristics of the P-38 are correct. Far from it. But I figure its a problem with the core Flight Model and how it deals with twin engine aircraft.

But regardless, you can fix the stall characteristics of the P-38L and its not going to change the effectiveness of this plane in the arena, except in very rare and extreme cases. Which is something that can be said about some quirk with just about every single aircraft.

Why the P-38L Will Always have a difficult Time in the Arena

• Its just too slow against late ETO aircraft. There are very few aircraft that you can disengage from, without a fight to the death.
• Its most effective at high altitude and the fights in the arena are down low.
• Its a BIG target and with high lethality, x4 20mm cannons environment it dies easily to snapshots
• While it turns good for an American plane, its definitely not a TnB aircraft in any way, shape, or form.
• Its got average guns, with a good ammo load. But it definitely is not a "snapshot" aircraft, and it typically requires a tracking shot. See point #1, and what happens is that most planes simply run away from it.

If anything, you guys are talking about how the P-38L is undermodeled, why don't you explore the roll intertia in the plane. Look at the historical descriptions of this aircraft and you will see that it doesn't exhibit the "distinct heisitation" when begining a roll that is frequently described. Now, its sustained roll rate looks to be correct, but its initial roll rate looks to be too high. And the hydraulic's aren't going to change that.

Sorry but no matter what you do, in our arena, facing aircraft from ETO and other late war monsters (ie N1K2 or Ki84), the P-38J or L neither one is not going to shine like it did during the actual war.

Its just too mediocre in too many performance categories, and excells in none.

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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 12-11-2000).]

[niklas]

hmm so far it looks like a twin engine design has a lot of advantages : no torque effect, gentle spin characteristic, better airflow (?), more propwash...
i mean, i read somewhere that every interruption of a wing reduce the quality of the wing.
A single engine design has one wing one interruption
A twin engine design has one wing and three interruptions.
I really have a problem to believe that these interruptions of a wing produce more advantages than disadvantages

[bolillo_loco]

I will be more than glad to argue the low speed and climb that aces high has modeled into this plane. also I do not argue that the plane has the slowest rate of roll at speeds below 200 mph ias. at 250 mph ias it is not as bad. at 300 mph it can out roll alot of the a/c here. at 350mph it is the best.

at medium to high speeds 109s and spits with heavy controls should not be able to stay with 38ls

also this sim has modeled the 38 10-15mph slower than it was. I see the other planes were modeled to their highest speed why cant the 38?

late model Ls are said to have 1,725hp wep per engine. this gave it a 425mph tas speed in military and 440 mph tas in wep.

38s have always seemed to be modeled to their lowest performance levels and alot of times these are not even met.

also stalls are important.

[juzz]

Not all other planes are modelled to their highest speed.

The P-47D-30 seems to be missing the speed and climb gains you would expect it to have over the less powerful D-25.

And don't even ask about the Soviet a/c performance figures in AH.  

[bolillo_loco]

ok, but I dont see people bashing the 47. people have skirted my questions on the 38 so what gives? hey corsair seem popular lest model it like corsairs that never even seen combat.

[Westy]

Maverick, is this what you were looking for?
 http://www.475thfg.org/tactics.htm

-Westy

[SKurj]

bolillo..

U can download the very latest version of Aces High, and test all the aircraft to your hearts delight, offline for hours on end, before you decide to spend a single penny on this sim that some us at least enjoy.

You may also find the answers to many of the questions you ask +)


AKSKurj

[juzz]

I guess it's not just the luftwobbles that are like that...

[Wmaker]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
I've flown that damn p38 more than anyone else who ever played this game

And you know this for a fact, right ?  

[Vermillion]

Oh and don't think its just the P-38L that is modeled at performance below the highest recorded in a flight test.

ALL the Russian aircraft have the same affliction.

The Yak-9U which is modeled at a max speed of 417mph at 18k in Aces High, was also tested at 437mph at 18k in real life.

Most pilots hate the Yak as it is.

Imagine if you added 20mph at altitude and 27mph at sea level, reduced its time to climb to 5k meters by 54 seconds, plus increased its turn rate by about 10%.

And this is all based upon solid data.

So Don't feel alone.

------------------
Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure

[bolillo_loco]

yes I can imagine that russian aircraft also suffer. seems at what ever sim I have played somebody does flight models and their favorite planes always recived performance to their highest figures found.

when I pointed out that the latest -4 corsair would turn worse than a P-47 due to the corsair having the spoiler on the wing which destroyed the planes lift coefficient it didnt take long for the "powers to be" to say it wasnt so because their latest caculations proved the naca data wrong.

I have seen this done at other sims. they did their caculations and had software on their pc to provide data on how the real plane would fly, what I didnt understand is when they said  x plane stalled at 120 mph with no flaps when the pilot manual says under the same conditions it should stall at 80 mph. so who would you believe? the "powers to be" at the flight sim modifications, or data that was gathered from a guy going out stalling the plane and people were recording this information?

38s for some reason always attract the most hatred, usually by the same people who do the flight mods and thus their perfomance suffers. I doubt there is a plane that can attract so much controversy than a P-38. I can see that it is pointless to debate the point of errors in flight models here at aces high. I am not buzzsaw from eaw. I do not have the patientes to debate with people that will never admit their errors no matter how much data you find. I gotta give that buzzsaw guy one thing, he sure was patient. you guys have fun with your flight mods. I am sure I wont be missed. I can go play other flight sims that are just as inaccurate for free.

[Lephturn]

BTW, did you ever play WB?  The 38J and L were considered "overmodelled" by many when I played it years ago.  Pyro did that sim too, so this "anti 38 bias" you claim to see doesn't exist here AFAIK.  If I had to bet on who's data was correct, I'd pick Pyro's any day of the week.  That said, if you have something new that Pyro hasn't seen, I'm sure he would love to have it.

Download the game and give it a try offline.  If it doesn't meet your standards, then by all means don't subscribe.  Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.  

------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs  http://www.flyingpigs.com
 
"A pig is a jolly companion, Boar, sow, barrow, or gilt --
A pig is a pal, who'll boost your morale, Though mountains may topple and tilt.
When they've blackballed, bamboozled, and burned you, When they've turned on you, Tory and Whig,
Though you may be thrown over by Tabby and Rover, You'll never go wrong with a pig, a pig,
You'll never go wrong with a pig!" -- Thomas Pynchon, "Gravity's Rainbow"

[This message has been edited by Lephturn (edited 12-12-2000).]

[SKurj]

bolillo you talk as if we are the sim designers.... WE AREN'T we are the players...

AKSKurj