Author Topic: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang  (Read 3438 times)

Offline CAP1

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2010, 09:34:28 PM »
I have nothing against mustangs since I know what they are, and they're great at what they are - nice looking cars that can't turn  :D

I do think it's pretty stupid when mustang fans try to talk about how great their mustangs are on a real racecourse, because any race results you can look up that compare stock mustangs of any year against stock 4-th gen f-bodies (the last generation built) show exactly what I said, that there has never been a stock mustang made that can keep up with a 4th gen f-body on a road course.  Then the mustang fans always bring up roush or saleen, at which point you're trying to compare a brand new $80k+ car against a car with a retail value of somewhere under $6,000, making it inevitable that the roush or saleen car will be compared against other $80k cars, of which the vette is the obvious comparison.  An equal comparison could be made between specialty versions of the nissan Z cars, the GT-R, and various european models, however it's just too easy to compare to the vette because the vette has a very good bang/buck ratio in the $60k-$80k price range.

But hate the mustang?  Naw.  I just know what it does well and what it sucks at.   They suck at turning, and the proof is all over the SCCA results for the last 12 years.
 
Brag on the current camaro (or charger, challenger, etc) for turning ability, and you'll get the same treatment :)

ya gotta do some research dude.


mustang will be less then 50k for a brand new one, modded to turn very nicely with the F bodies.

 get a <what was the last year of the camaro?> and mod it slightly, and it'll do much better than ya trhink :aok
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Offline Strip

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2010, 09:36:52 PM »
Its still a Ford.....

Strip

Offline CAP1

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2010, 09:37:37 PM »
Its still a Ford.....

Strip

yep. that, sir, is the best part.  :aok
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Offline Saxman

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2010, 09:39:08 PM »
I wish I had $30,000-40,000.

I'll be driving that Integra until it falls apart.... :(
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2010, 09:46:02 PM »
But hate the mustang?  Naw.  I just know what it does well and what it sucks at.   They suck at turning, and the proof is all over the SCCA results for the last 12 years.
 
Brag on the current camaro (or charger, challenger, etc) for turning ability, and you'll get the same treatment :)
Try Koni Challenge...Mustang have been beating up the competion (BWMs Porsche among others).  Just saying though.
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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2010, 09:47:36 PM »
Its still a Ford.....

Strip

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Offline saggs

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2010, 10:00:53 PM »
With all this talk of Mustangs not being able to corner, or handle a track at all; has it been forgotten that Mustangs DID actually race competitively in the BTCC back in the day, and they did quite well to boot.  Sure the Coopers they raced against out cornered them, but it's not like the Mustangs ended up in a giant fireball in every corner, and the Mustangs always beat 'em in the straights.

I remember a few years ago Top Gear did a test of the stock vs. Shelby GT500 vs. Roush Mustangs.  Their general conclusion was favorable for the stock, and the Roush versions, but they disliked the GT500 because it had much more power than stock, but with no upgrades to the suspension or brakes to handle that power.  Basically that if you got a little to heavy footed in the GT500, it could very easily kill you in the next corner, whereas the Roush has less power than the GT500, but does have improved brakes, suspension.

Personally I like a car that can slide the butt end out a little in the corners, it's fun, (at least until you spin out and meet a tree) makes smoke, and loud squealing noises, what more do you need. :aok

Offline eagl

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2010, 10:37:26 PM »
Pre-1994, it was all mustang over camaro/firebird.  No contest, the mustang was a better performer.  The LT-1 engine after 1994-1995 had an honest 285hp though, and from 1995 through the end of f-body production in 2002, there was simply no way any factory mustang could keep up with a factory camaro/firebird.  The use of the LS-1 engine from 1998-2002, combined with some other modifications such as the more blunt front end which reduced body lift at high speed, was just icing on the cake.  The LS-1 was conservatively rated at 305 hp, but most Z-28s would dyno bone-stock at over 295hp, meaning they were actually getting around 340 at the crank.  Simple intake and exhaust work would bump the F-body LS-1 right back up to the 265hp the same motor got in the vette motor in those years, even without using the more aggressive vette camshaft.

My G8 GT uses an evolved version of the LS series motors, limited to a mere 361hp because of the cylinder disable feature which helps boost fuel efficiency and avoid the gas guzzler tax.  Guys who swap out the collapsable lifters for LS-2 or LS-3 parts are easily seeing 400+ hp with only minor mods.

And cap, you're absolutely right about how easy it is to mod the 4th gen f-bodies for crazy power.  A guy here at Sheppard AFB swapped in an LS-3 crate motor, then either turbo or supercharged it, for somewhere north of 600hp street legal on pump gas.  And all total, the price of the car and all the mods he's done plus some interior upgrades like full leather seat replacements, etc., is less than the price of a 2010 mustang GT.

The only downside to spending a few grand building up a used f-body into an insane mustang killer is that you have to wear a mullet.  That part sort of sucks.
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Offline eagl

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2010, 10:47:03 PM »
Hmmm pretty sure a early 90s FOX Mustang would smack the crap out of a 3rd Gen Camaro.  Why only the F-Body cars?  I bet you're an F-Body guy. 

The '89-'93 fox mustangs were great (especially the "sleeper" 5.0 LX because it was 300lbs lighter than the GT and had a stiffer frame due to having a trunk instead of the hatchback), until around 1994 when the LT-1 motor started cranking out around 285hp.  My brother had a 1995 camaro and the mustangs couldn't touch it on either a dragstrip or road course without some serious modifications.

The CHP experimented with switching from mustangs to camaros for their pursuit vehicles in the early 1990s, and from 1994 on did not buy any more mustangs at all since the camaros were so much faster for the same price.  They didn't switch over to the camaro completely however, because of the ergonomics of the camaro.  It's just too hard to get into and out of in a hurry, and the visibility out of a camaro/firebird was terrible compared to the mustangs in those years.  But you couldn't beat the performance/dollar of the camaro after 1994, and they could really withstand quite a beating in hard driving.

It's interesting to note that the f-body got a bad reputation of being bad in accidents because of the high fatality rate from collisions and single-car crashes, but a closer look at the accidents showed that the fatalities were usually caused by not wearing a seatbelt, plus the accidents were occurring a LOT faster than other typical accidents.  I know a guy who walked away from a camaro after the guy driving it flipped it at 80+.  The driver was not wearing his seatbelt and he died instantly, but the passenger got a busted arm and was able to extract himself from the wreckage before help arrived.  But the insurance companies look at the stats and not so much at the details of the individual retards crashing the cars, so the insurance rates were higher than I think they should have been.
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Offline 5PointOh

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2010, 10:50:56 PM »
But I'm positive with the plethora of aftermarket parts for the Fox chassis mustangs, I could buy and build a Fox Mustang to beat the snot out of a new Camaro SS.  I mean you can pick up an average 5.0L for 2500.00 USD.  That leaves roughly 32,000.00 USD for mods.  

So imo comparing a modified F-Body to a new Mustang is like comparing creamed corn to apples.

Btw you could get an LX in hatchback, notchback or ragtop.

My old LX...

« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 10:54:54 PM by 5PointOh »
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Offline eagl

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2010, 10:52:41 PM »
Try Koni Challenge...Mustang have been beating up the competion (BWMs Porsche among others).  Just saying though.


Stock?  There is no doubt that you can throw mods at a mustang (or any car for that matter) and make it turn better, but that's not really what we're talking about.

Even my 4000lb plus G8 will turn fairly well with just a bushing swapout, but that's because it is a well balanced car.  But there is no hiding the fact that it weighs 4000 lbs and all the springs, shocks, bushings, superchargers you might throw at it will simply make it a better "handling" 4000 lb car.  Physics takes over at some point and there is only so much you can do to increase the tire contact patch or otherwise add turning capability to a heavy car.  That's what kills the current mustangs, camaros, chargers, challengers, etc.  They weigh a lot and you can't change that without major modifications.
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Offline CAP1

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2010, 11:56:30 PM »
Stock?  There is no doubt that you can throw mods at a mustang (or any car for that matter) and make it turn better, but that's not really what we're talking about.

Even my 4000lb plus G8 will turn fairly well with just a bushing swapout, but that's because it is a well balanced car.  But there is no hiding the fact that it weighs 4000 lbs and all the springs, shocks, bushings, superchargers you might throw at it will simply make it a better "handling" 4000 lb car.  Physics takes over at some point and there is only so much you can do to increase the tire contact patch or otherwise add turning capability to a heavy car.  That's what kills the current mustangs, camaros, chargers, challengers, etc.  They weigh a lot and you can't change that without major modifications.

We were fortunate enough to get a chance to take the wheel of a Track Pack equipped 2010 Mustang and take it through the hills around Los Angeles, California.  Despite stiffer springs and shocks the Track Pack provides a surprisingly comfortable ride.  Turn in is crisp thanks to grippy 19-inch Pirelli tires and according to Team Mustang their tenacious grip generates a .93 G skid pad rating.  We have no doubt

source...
http://www.corral.net/new/index.php/tech/43-articles/107-2010-mustang-first-drive


At the track, all that hardware translates to a maximum 68.6-mph speed through our slalom and 0.88g on the skid pad. Here the lack of visibility was a hindrance through the slalom as well. It's difficult to see where the corners of this car are while you're driving. For most sane people, this sensation makes one overestimate the size of the car in order to ensure a safe distance from other cars or objects.

source....
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-full-test-and-video.html

http://www.modernracer.com/chevroletcamaro2010.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this one shows camaro at .90

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2010/2011_ford_mustang_gt/index.html

with those numbers, it will not be the car that decides who gets through a corner first, but rather the driver.

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Offline Masherbrum

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2010, 12:01:19 AM »
We were fortunate enough to get a chance to take the wheel of a Track Pack equipped 2010 Mustang and take it through the hills around Los Angeles, California.  Despite stiffer springs and shocks the Track Pack provides a surprisingly comfortable ride.  Turn in is crisp thanks to grippy 19-inch Pirelli tires and according to Team Mustang their
source...
http://www.corral.net/new/index.php/tech/43-articles/107-2010-mustang-first-drive


At the track, all that hardware translates to a maximum 68.6-mph speed through our slalom and 0.88g on the skid pad. Here the lack of visibility was a hindrance through the slalom as well. It's difficult to see where the corners of this car are while you're driving. For most sane people, this sensation makes one overestimate the size of the car in order to ensure a safe distance from other cars or objects.

source....
http://www.insideline.com/chevrolet/camaro/2010/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-full-test-and-video.html

http://www.modernracer.com/chevroletcamaro2010.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ this one shows camaro at .90

http://www.motortrend.com/auto_shows/detroit/2010/2011_ford_mustang_gt/index.html

with those numbers, it will not be the car that decides who gets through a corner first, but rather the driver.

Exactly.   
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Offline phatzo

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2010, 12:09:07 AM »
Back in the day, Australian V8 touring car championships suffered a bout of foreign imports, I think it was the late 80's, and Fords domestic V8, Falcon couldn't cope. Dick Johnson, a long time Ford touring car man, used the new rules to use Mustangs ( much like coprheads one ). I wish some of you guys could of had the chance to see these things racing at bathurst. It was an awsome spectacle.
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Offline whiteman

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Re: 5.0 returns in the 2011 Mustang
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2010, 12:10:02 AM »
The LS-1 was conservatively rated at 305 hp, but most Z-28s would dyno bone-stock at over 295hp, meaning they were actually getting around 340 at the crank.  Simple intake and exhaust work would bump the F-body LS-1 right back up to the 265hp the same motor got in the vette motor in those years, even without using the more aggressive vette camshaft.

maybe 1998-2000 were at 295-305 but the 01-02 F-Bodies stock I've seen on a dyno go from 300rwhp to as high as 333rwhp on a six speed. My '01 stock put out 323 rwhp and 347 rwtrq through a 4L60E, thats a nice 387hp & 412lbtrq at the crank. Awsome bang for the buck from those cars and are much lighter compared to the newer mucle cars.