USAF Museum on Late War Japanese Fighters

[Vermillion]

As a continuing fascination with the N1K2 and other Late War Japanese Fighters, I decided to contact both the USAF Museum and the US Naval Aviation Musuem, to see if I could find any flight test data on these aircraft. Incidentally, both of these musuems currently contain a "George" as part of their collection, and it is well known that multiple copies of both the Ki-84 and the Ki-100 were flight tested in the US after the war.

I initially contacted them by phone, and then in writting for any performance data on the N1K2 Shinden "George, the Ki-84 "Frank", or the Ki-100 Otsu "Tony".

Here is the reply I received:
 

Dear Mr. Arrington
We do not have any of the material you seek on any of the three Japanese aircraft of World War Two.  I called one of the leading American authorities on Japanese aircraft of that war and he told me he tried to locate this type of material for many years to no avail.  It was apparently destroyed when the aircraft were several years after the war as there wasn't any real reason to retain it.  No one would have dreamed in those years that anyone would be interested in such material fifty years in the future, that is for sure.

Sincerely
D. Menard
Researcher
United States Air Force Musuem

Hmmmm.....  very interesting.

I am waiting intently to see what the Navy gets back to me.

Vermillion

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Pyro]

Good luck, especially on the George.  Aside from that intel report which I don't put much merit in, there doesn't appear to be much info on that plane which has made it into the public domain.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations

[Nath-BDP]

I am actually going to the USAF Museum for thanksgiving day weekend, but I hear the George is currently not on display to the public, but I'll try to get as much info as I can.

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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"

[Vermillion]

Thats the point Pyro !!

Where did you get YOUR data on the George  

You say you put little trust in that intel report, but I find that strange, given what little I know of aeronautical engineering (admittedly little). But when viewed in comparison to the specifications of other aircraft. Given the engine/horsepower,the weight, the wing area, the general design, and everything else, its seems to me that it should be able to perform up to the specs of the data I posted.

Whats your famous quote ?  

Show me the data !!

Lets play Doctor, I showed you mine, now you show me yours  



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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Minotaur]

<Did I read what I thought I just read?>

Mino  

[SnakeEyes]

Ancient Japanese secret, Verm.  

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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=

[Vermillion]

Let me guess.....

I have to pick up some red hot anvil with ancient japanese hieroglyphs on the sides, that will brand me permanently on the inner arms,  to get this data  

<refers to old tv show Kung Fu>

OK, heat up the anvil ;-p



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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[leonid]

 

Good luck, especially on the George. Aside from that intel report which I don't put much merit in, there doesn't appear to be much info on that plane which has made it into the public domain.

-pyro's post

Verm,
I think the keyword is public domain.  Basically, there are people/companies out there that sell this information out for a price that I can only conjecture, and rather badly.  The only other route is to correspond to authors of military aviation books, asking (graciously) for flight data sources.  I was able to acquire a number of addresses (some personal addresses even) in both Russia and Germany wrt Soviet WWII flight data by corresponding with a well known English author.  Unfortunately, I never did take it any further, so I can't tell you what it would have cost.  Incidently, for most of the contacts I was given the author asked that I let the addressee know I was being referred to by him.  Thus, it can get very personal too.

Acquiring flight data is a lot of work, requiring patience, frequent correspondence of one form or another, and an investigative mind.  If you want to really get the good stuff, I suggest forgetting about the museums, and trying specific people who are authorities in WWII aviation, because they frequently have many contacts.  And hurry, because some of them are quite along in years.

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129 IAP VVS RKKA

[Nath-BDP]

Nakajima (Ki.84-1-ko) Army Type 4 Fighter Model 1-ko
 
Hayate specification;

Power plant: One Nakajima (Ha-45-21)Army type 4 Model 21 188-cylinder radial air-cooled engine rated at 2,000 hp at 3,000 rpm for take-off, 1,860 hp at 3,000 rpm at 5,905 ft (1 800 m) and 1,620 hp at 3,000 rpm at 20,995 ft (6 400 m). driving four-bladed constant-speed electrically-operated Pc-32 propeller of 10 ft 2 in (3.10m) diam. Total internal fuel capacity of 153 lmp gal (697 1) distributed between one 47.7 lmp gal (217 l) fuselage tank, two 40 lmp gal (173 l) wing centre section tanks and two 14.7 lmp gal (67 l) outboard wing leading-edge tanks.
Performance: (At 7,965 lb/3613 kg with 124 lmp gal/563 1 (fuel) Max speed, 325 mph (523 km/h) at sea level, 362 mph (582km/h) at 9,840 ft (3000 m), 388 mph (624 km/h) at 21,325 ft (6,500 m). 374 mph (602 km/h) at 29,530 ft (9000 m), 340 mph (547 km/h) at 34,450 ft (10 500 m); normal cruise, 236 mph (380 km/h) at 19,685 ft (6000 m), initial climb rate, 3,790 ft/min (19.25 m/sec); time to 16,405 ft (5000 m), 6:42 min. to 26,245 ft (8 000 m), 11:66 min; service ceiling, 36,090 ft (1 000 m); range (full internal fuel) at 1 640 ft (500 m), 1,025 mls (1 650 km) at 178 mph (286 km/h), 780 mls (1 255 km) at 254 mph (408 km/h), with two 44 lmp gal (200 l) drop tanks, 1,815 mls (2920 km) at 173 mph (278 km/h), 1,410 mls (2 270 km) at 241 mph (388 km/h); stalling speed (flaps down), 86 mph (138 km/h).
Weights: Empty equipped, 5,864 lb (2 660 kg); normal loaded (full internal fuel), 8,192 lb (3 716 kg); max overload, 9,195 lb (4171 kg).
Dimensions: Span. 36 ft. 2 in. (11.24 m); length 32 ft 6-1/2 in (9.92 m); height, 11 ft 1 in (3.38 m); wing area, 226-04 sq. ft (21.0 m2).
Armament: Two fuselage-mounted 13-mm Ho-103 machine guns with 350 rpg and two wing-mounted 20-mm Hol-5 cannon with 150 rpg. Provision for two 66-lb (30-kg), 220-lb (100-kg) or two 551-lb (250-kg)bombs on underwing racks.

Is this the kind of info you are looking for?
This info was from a test conducted at Wright Field, Dayton, Ohio.  The Ki-84 also didn't have rudder and aileron trimming which hampered the execution of well-coordinated manuevers.  And I qoute from  one of the test pilot(s?) "It was quickly ascertained that, in genral, the handling and control characteristics of the Hayate were superior to those of comparable US fighters and particulary in the low speed regime." Also, "It was concluded from the test programme carried out at Wright Field that Hayate was essentially a good fighter which compared favourably with the P-51H Mustang and the P-47N Thunderbolt. It could out-climb and out-manuever both USAAF fighters, turning inside them with ease, but both the P-51H and P-47N enjoyed higher diving speeds and marginally higher top speeds. The light power loading and control forces of the Japanese fighter were something to be admired, but it was not so well constructed as its US contemporaries, perhaps reflecting the slipping of Japanese production standards at the stage of the war; it was obviously incapable of standing up so well as US fighters under continual usage and it was more demanding on maintenance."

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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"

[Toad]

"The Ki-84 also didn't have rudder and aileron trimming which hampered the execution of well-coordinated manuevers."

This is pretty common on aircraft of this era, particularly the "early war" models.

Two points:

When we model rudder and aileron trim on aircraft that did not have them, are we departing from the "We don't model complexity for the sake of it" philosophy?

Secondly, I think there is a bit of a misperception about the use of trim in ACM. Yes, it was used but it IS NOT a primary flight control.

[Vermillion]

What I am looking for Nath is copies of the original reports of the flight tests, which typically include testing under several differnt load regime's, and power settings. And include graphs of max speed vs altitude, climb vs altitude, and turning ability, among other things.

A good example, but one not totally complete, is documents like this one for the Navy's Tigercat, from their Naval Historical Center website.
 http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/hist-ac/f7f-3n.pdf

The tests from Wright Pat are exactly what I am looking for, but the USAF Museum claims they don't exist anymore.

Leonid, I understood the reference to public domain   It is my understanding that Professional Researchers, don't so much have mystical private access to unknown private stash's of knowledge. They just know where to go find it much more quickly and easily than the rest of us. At least thats what one person who I use to talk to on a BBS who claimed to do work like that (in a different area of knowledge tho).

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Nath-BDP]

To my knowledge the only US testing of the Ki-84 in the US was that of the info I posted and only concluded of 11 1/2 flying hours due to failure of the exhaust stacks due to poor materials the a/c was constructed with. I doubt any info in the extent you want is available, since very few Ki 84s survived the war, and those that did were scrapped etc, Japanese planes were always considered just a copy of 'old american designs,' also, I think your best bet would have to conact Marinao Gokan, president of the Japanese Owner Pilots' Association, and owner of prolly the only still air-worthy Ki-84 this is also the one that was used for test at Wright Patterson.

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1./Jagdgeschwader 51 "Mölders"

[Vermillion]

Well, mostly I was interested in the N1K2, butI figured if I was asking I might as well as for info on more than one :-)

Btw, I will have to look up the source, but I think there were 3 Ki-84's and 2 Ki-100's that were brought over after the war along with the two Georges that are still in the museums, for testing purposes.

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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires "

[Sink]

Association, and owner of prolly the only still air-worthy Ki-84 this is also the one that was used for test at Wright Patterson.

Unfortunately, the only airworthy example of the Ki-84 was rendered unflyable when the wing spars were cut shortly after arriving in Japan.

[Pyro]

Verm:  I'm not being obtuse with you, I've really never seen anything substantial on the George.

BTW, for your interests a good book would be "War Prizes".  It documents all the captured planes that were sent to the U.S. and what happened to them.  


Toad: I once had a German player call me from Germany to inform me about the lack of rudder and aileron trim on the real 109 and what a gross oversight it was to have it in the game I was working on then.  He was agitated when I informed him that it wasn't an oversight and was done intentionally.  He told me he didn't know how he could ever enjoy the game again knowing that such a grave error would be purposefully perpetrated.  I then pointed out that while the real plane lacked trim on those two axes, it also lacked a keyboard as a main communications interface.  Plus the sim pilot has many other hardships and difficulties to endure that real pilots didn't such as constant debeer/rebeer evolutions, answering the door for you pizza delivery, and trying to simultaneously watch a football game while flying.

In this case, the additional trim controls aren't added to add more complexity, they're added to make things easier on the pilot.  Whether the trim is used manually or by the autopilot, it frees you up from having to constantly keep your hands on the control and lets you perform ahistorical tasks such as typing messages, eating pizza, and drinking beer.



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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations