Rudder Trim and Turns

[bustr]

I was listening to a conversation about using full manual rudder trim deflection along with normal rudder peddel deflection to enhance your manuverability in combat. I've used full up pitch trim to enhance manuvering. How usefull is full rudder trim?

Or, what is the consencus on using rudder and elevator manual trim to their full defelction to aid in turns and rapid nose deflection?

[mtnman]

I was listening to a conversation about using full manual rudder trim deflection along with normal rudder peddel deflection to enhance your manuverability in combat. I've used full up pitch trim to enhance manuvering. How usefull is full rudder trim?

Or, what is the consencus on using rudder and elevator manual trim to their full defelction to aid in turns and rapid nose deflection?

Full deflection + plus max trim, doesn't give you any more deflection than just plain ol' max deflection.  This has been hashed over many times already here on the Forums.  Trimming does not increase overall deflection.

I would say that trimming any surface to it's maximum would have an effect on maneuverability, but it wouldn't be a good one.  That would mean you'd be out of trim for almost any maneuver...

I use rudder A LOT, and can't think of a single time I'd like to have it trimmed for full deflection, ever.

[WMLute]

Trimming a plane in this fashion will allow you to not have to move your joystick/pedals as much to reach full deflection in a maneuver.

It does NOT make you turn tighter/better.

Max deflection, whether you trim and move your controls a little, or not trimming and move them a tad more, is still just that; max deflection.

Trimming does not make you able to go past max deflection.

Now... there ARE times when trimming will help you in a fight.  
Using down trim to offset the nose lift with full flaps.
When some planes are fast, 109's, ki84, etc, it helps to turn off combat trim and use manual to help in the maneuver.

There are other examples but what I want to stress is that it is more pilot preference than an "advantage" when in a stall fight.  During a knife fight, using trim to aid the turn will not make the plane turn "tighter".

(edit: durn it, was watching the Dailey Show and mtnman beat me to it)

(edit:edit: If I loose a rudder in fight I will usually RTB.  I use rudder for almost every maneuver and to setup my shots)

[TequilaChaser]

I concur , on what mtnman and WMLute have posted.......

I want to add that trimming to Max trim setting will also increase a players "bouncy nose" syndrome worse than a player who uses Combat Trim all the time.....which also causes bouncy/bouncing nose tendency's.....

hope this helps  ~S~

[bustr]

Yes it does help.

I used to use max pitch up trim with full flaps on the La5/7 with WEP to pull inside of poor spit pilots for a guns solution. Platano taught me to use it with the K4 in turns with flaps and WEP or for an instantanious nose pitched up manuver. I've since found these tricks work on poor pilots about as well as just applying proper tactics with combat trim on for the aircraft I'm flying without having to remember all the buttons or wheels I've mapped for trim during a fight.

[Ardy123]

check to see if when your joystick is moved to its maximum positions if it reports full 2^15 or -2^15 position numbers. If they are not, this could be why trim is making a difference.

[JunkyII]

I know how you can turn better......buy some rudder pedals

[Murdr]

Wow.  I have replied on the elevator trim myth so many times it's not funny.  Refreshing to see it so well covered.

I'm not sure what the context of the rudder trim discussion was, but that is generally a bad idea on a few fronts.  First off, if your rudder is not trimmed neutral in straight and level flight (ball centered), that means your fuselage is kicked out into the airstream causing extra drag.  Right off the bat, your turn performance is going to degrade more rapidly because of the extra speed loss from that drag.  I'll take a guess that the scenario is low and slow turning circles on the deck, with the idea that kicking your nose away from the ground is going to help you turn faster.  If it is causing the ball to sit at the end of the vial, it won't help, but hurt.  Take two identical planes with equal pilots, and have one trying that exadurated "counter rudder" stuff, and the other plane (flying to the ball) will drive around the circle on it.  Why?  Because the other plane can sustain a higher average speed and degrees per second without that excess drag.

Another thing is that if you have your plane yawed in a hard turn, you may be exacerbating unequal conditions on your wings which will cause one wing to stall well ahead of the other.  Net result is you'll end up easing off of the stick more than you would have if you were flying "clean".

I'll usually only adjust the rudder to compensate for battle damage.

[WMLute]

Yes it does help.

If you choose not to listen to 3 AcesHigh Trainers (and me, but hey, what do I know...) then I don't know what to tell you.

(what do the 4 of us have... 50-60+ years of combined experience in WW2 flight sims?)

Why even post if you are not going to listen to the advice of people that KNOW this stuff?  

Think it through.  (he says trying one more time to make 'em understand)

100% max deflection is just that.  MAXIMUM deflection.

If you do not trim and have to pull your joystick back 2 inches to reach max deflection, or you manually trim and have to pull your joystick back 1 inch to reach max deflection, in either scenario you are still ONLY GOING TO REACH MAX DEFLECTION.

Trimming your elevators (or rudder, or ailerons) all the way up will not suddenly make your plane achieve more than MAXIMUM deflection.




If you THINK it helps then hey, keep doing it.  It isn't true, factual, or accurate and hurts your planes over all maneuverability in a knife fight; but if fiddlin' with manual trim in the middle of a dogfight makes you believe you are maneuvering better then have at it.

[Flench]

Trimming a plane in this fashion will allow you to not have to move your joystick/pedals as much to reach full deflection in a maneuver.

It does NOT make you turn tighter/better.

Max deflection, whether you trim and move your controls a little, or not trimming and move them a tad more, is still just that; max deflection.

Trimming does not make you able to go past max deflection.

Now... there ARE times when trimming will help you in a fight.  
Using down trim to offset the nose lift with full flaps.
When some planes are fast, 109's, ki84, etc, it helps to turn off combat trim and use manual to help in the maneuver.

There are other examples but what I want to stress is that it is more pilot preference than an "advantage" when in a stall fight.  During a knife fight, using trim to aid the turn will not make the plane turn "tighter".

(edit: durn it, was watching the Dailey Show and mtnman beat me to it)

(edit:edit: If I loose a rudder in fight I will usually RTB.  I use rudder for almost every maneuver and to setup my shots)

Good tips <S> ..

[TequilaChaser]

hope this helps  ~S~

Yes it does help.

I used to use max pitch up trim with full flaps on the La5/7 with WEP to pull inside of poor spit pilots for a guns solution. Platano taught me to use it with the K4 in turns with flaps and WEP or for an instantanious nose pitched up manuver. I've since found these tricks work on poor pilots about as well as just applying proper tactics with combat trim on for the aircraft I'm flying without having to remember all the buttons or wheels I've mapped for trim during a fight.

G'Mornin Lute,
so how many cups of coffee did you already have by 6:20 AM this monin?   

[BaldEagl]

Once agian, for anyone who doesn't understand how trim works here's a couple of posts of mine copied from this thread on trim: http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,269771.0.html

When a trim tab is employed, it is moved into the slipstream opposite to the control surface's desired deflection. For example, in order to trim an elevator to hold the nose down, the elevator's trim tab will actually rise up into the slipstream. The increased pressure on top of the trim tab surface caused by raising it will then deflect the entire elevator slab down slightly, causing the tail to rise and the aircraft's nose to move down.

This would explain why they have no ability to improve turn performance and it also explains why they are so effective in overcoming control stiffness.

Think about a compressed dive.  The airstream is providing greater force then the pilot can overcome by pulling back on the stick, thus the elevators are locked.  When the pilot trims up the trim tab is deflected down into the airstream providing an upward force on the elevator which is transferred to the stick thereby assisting the pilot in pulling it back.

The pilot can trim in this instance because the trim tab is relatively small compared to the elevator itself so forcing it into the airstream is relatively that much easier.

[mtnman]

It's probably worth noting also that when an aircraft is designed, some thought actually goes into control-surface deflection. 

There's a point where allowing additional deflection is actually detrimental.  The deflected surface would create excessive drag, and wouldn't give an increased directional control effect.  We see an example of that with flaps.  Beyond a certain deflection, they cause a larger increase in drag than additional lift. 

If deflecting the elevator "x" degrees gives the most effect with the least drag, then "gaining" extra degrees of deflection will cause increased drag, but less directional-control effect.  Imagine for example, if the elevator could be deflected to 90 degrees; you'd get huge amounts of drag, and very little nose-up effect.  Imagine how dangerous the ability to deflect the surface that far would be; in an emergency landing for example.

It stands to reason that an aircraft designer would allow more control surface deflection if doing so would allow that aircraft to perform better. 

Trim doesn't give you more deflection, and if it did, it would likely hurt your performance, rather than enhance it...

[Ack-Ack]

Yes it does help.

Any perceived benefit is solely in the mind of the beholder.


ack-ack

[CAP1]

Yes it does help.

I used to use max pitch up trim with full flaps on the La5/7 with WEP to pull inside of poor spit pilots for a guns solution. Platano taught me to use it with the K4 in turns with flaps and WEP or for an instantanious nose pitched up manuver. I've since found these tricks work on poor pilots about as well as just applying proper tactics with combat trim on for the aircraft I'm flying without having to remember all the buttons or wheels I've mapped for trim during a fight.

elevator trim is used only for adjusting to different cruise conditions. it changes nothing in combat. you cannot get more than 100% movement from your control surfaces.

 also, with practice, you won't need to remember what you mapped where.....i couldn't tell ya what i mapped to what buttons, but when i'm in combat, i just "automatically" hit what i need to hit.