Dueling vs MA fighting

[dedalos]

Dedalos, you lost me on this "Script" thing..... where has anyone suggested flying a scripted fight on this thread or even on that ACM-Merge link from the Trainers website?

I agree one should not take different maneuvers and fly 1 or 2 trick pony shows...... or even fly maneuvers they have learned in a "scripted" fashion.......


about flying with optimal fuel/ammo weight? I would always instruct my students to practice/Train with 75% or 50% fuel loads..... so they would have that extra edge of knowledge when and if they had to mix it up like right after taking off....


~S~

Ahhh, I did not meant it that way.  A script would be anything that you are planing to do before you see what the other guy is doing.  For example, coming into a merge and going for an imel no matter what the other guy is doing.  Thats what I mean by script.  Making up your mind before a you see what the bad guy is doing.  That is why it is very hard to tell anyone how to merge or fight.  It depends on what the bad guy is doing, what plane he is in, etc.  In a DA it is simpler since you only have to worry about what he is doing but in the MA it is more complicated.  I wont merge the same way against a zero and a p51.  It depends on my fuel load, my alt, my speed, what I think their speed is, are they lead turning, going for the HO etc.  So, and this is for the people asking how, it is very hard (if not impossible) to tell you how to merge or what you are doing wrong sunless you define all the variables.

[dedalos]

The thing that amazes me about duels is how important an equal load-out can be.  I don't duel often, but the last time I did with sunbatt (lots of fun) we weren't very strict with reupping after one of us was shot down.  Being just ~100 lbs lighter made for a decisive advantage because we were roughly on par in flying skill (both flying the same aircraft).

In the main arena, you rarely have an idea about what your opponent's fuel and load-out status might be.  However, I am far more inclined to look for a 1vs1 fight in the arena when my fuel state is optimal, i.e. not too much and not too little.  Be careful about engaging in a knock-down fight if your aircraft is not at an optimal weight.

Honestly, I think you are wrong about how close your skills were.  100lbs will not make any difference

[sunfan1121]

Honestly, I think you are wrong about how close your skills were.  100lbs will not make any difference

I agree. It's better to stay up so you can get more fights in. As long as the other guy has equal E it's a fair fight. I lose just as many fights 100 lbs lighter than i do heaver.

[jdbecks]

Quite a bad habit I was doing, was always lead turning and being inpatient for the shot to come, I now Lag turn alot more and the guns solution comes.

[SPKmes]

From my little bit of experience...the difference between MA and DA dueling/fighting is the kill factor...in the DA you and your opponent are there to increase skill, have a bit of fun without interference, the list goes on....in the MA the majority of the fights and fighters are looking to kill hard and fast to get as many scalps as possible before too many other cons arrive or to get name in lights....on occasion (for me and the time I can fly it is quite a lot) you will come across somebody..or perhaps a winging pair who are for the fight...sure we are all looking for the success of a fight but sometimes when you have a good fight win or lose it is always a win in the mind due to the shear quality of the fight. sorry I digress.....so in the MA you find people are pulling hard looking to get around,on top, advantage instantly. Also as has been said by waystin....the not knowing if a particular shot is too head on or not...DA rules ????  

Somebody said here about hardware quality......I personally do not fully agree with this as if you are able to get a constant FR of atleast 30 you are at no greater advantage wether you use a mouse or the latest CH products...it more comes down to stick time (as has also been said)  I can and do get my butt whipped by people who use a mouse and $20 sticks.

[Stiglr]

Dueling is pretty silly, in my estimation.

Most fights did not begin at co-alt with "fair and even" speeds and conditions. Air combat (even 1-vs.-1) is not a joust, or an effeminate Elizabethan "affair of honor" with antique pistols and "seconds" standing by with the oak boxes they came in.

You started the fight based on any number of other mission variables. Sometimes you started with an advantage, sometimes not. You just played the hand you were dealt and survived by your skill and your SA and sometimes by your technological superiority.

==================

Now, that said, if you're going to duel, it is all about knowing your capabilities vs. the enemy's and exploiting it. If you find you just can't get angles or you're always being quickly out-manevered, my guess is you're pulling way too hard on the stick right after the merge and bleeding energy, while your opponent is tightly abiding by his corner speeds and getting more out of his E than you are. That, and he may simply have better-honed situational awareness skills than you.

Never underestimate the power of a simply keeping (or storing) energy against an aggressive dueling opponent who will try to solve the issue immediately. Just after the (guns off) merge, go into a straight ahead, but gradual pitchback maneuver and watch as best you can what your opponent is doing back there as you climb out. If he turns hard or dives, you should be getting an alt advantage that should win you the fight by itself. If he climbs along with you, then it truly becomes an energy duel. (of course, if you're dueling in dissimilar planes, and the enemy's plane climbs a LOT better than yours, the above isn't likely to work, since his climb advantage might nullify your pitchback even if he does waste some energy in turning)

Once you have a decent alt advantage and some horizontal separation, then turn back (gradually, not in one blackout-inducing 6-G turn  ) watching your enemy the whole time. Try to get him to go nose up to come after you. If he does that, you can go nose up, too, draining both of you of energy, and eventually, he's got to drop his nose before you do, and at that point you can drop down on him and either gun his brains out, or  do a feint to get him to blow even more energy in break turns or barrel rolls.

If you don't have any climb advantage, and the pitchback won't help, you might try to simply dodge your opponent until he makes a critical mistake. Just loiter about and watch him, and dodge gun passes with break turns, dives or whatever you  need to survive. The goal is to get him to commit to a gun pass where he dives well below you.... you pull up into this, dodge the pass, and you then have an alt advantage to turn the tables.

If opponent's very patient, or a veteran boom-and-zoomer, then you won't win with this strategy. Eventually, he'll force you to trade alt for speed needed to dodge his attacks... and he'll get you sooner or later... unless you can force that one mistake.

[Shuffler]

Dueling is pretty silly, in my estimation.

Most fights did not begin at co-alt with "fair and even" speeds and conditions. Air combat (even 1-vs.-1) is not a joust, or an effeminate Elizabethan "affair of honor" with antique pistols and "seconds" standing by with the oak boxes they came in.

You started the fight based on any number of other mission variables. Sometimes you started with an advantage, sometimes not. You just played the hand you were dealt and survived by your skill and your SA and sometimes by your technological superiority.

This is a game, a competition. It pays to increase your skill level dogfighting. In the MAs no matter what you do, B&Z, run, pork, or JABO, at some time or another your going to be the one at a disadvantage. If your the one that prepared for that scenario then you will still have an some advantage. One that the other guy won't realize till probably too late.

[Baumer]

Another important factor is hardware.

If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.

Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.

Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.

I have a slightly different take on this, the computer and controls are important, but it is significantly more important that you get the best out of the system you have.

1.) Do everything to maximize the performance of the system you have. As Hitech, Pyro, and Skuzzy said repeatedly at the CON, the game will perform best when the frame rate is the same as the screen refresh rate. Do what ever it takes to get that, i.e. low your screen resolution, lower the detail, turn the "fluf" off, kill background apps and processes. An interesting point was illustrated by a guy who had a "Killer Rig" and was getting 300 FPS in the game, Hitech said that's just as bad as a low frame rate. The point is this, if your system isn't in sync with the refresh rate of your monitor you are missing stuff.

2.) Familiarity with your gear is better than constantly getting new stuff. That's another benefit of going to the CON, trying other systems and seeing how people set up their gear. What's interesting about that is watching how a great "stick" in the game (who usually beats me) struggled trying to use a top of the line CH setup. He just wanted to go back to his old MS sidewinder with 3 buttons.
 

[Murdr]

This is going to go bad fast lol.

Well of course it's going to go bad fast.  The primary factor being your utter lack of perspective.  Bighorn?  Really?  What part of the following words do you not understand?

Basic ACM and Merge Tactics
"..things in general we would like to try to do during a merge"

Avoid the opponents guns

Wow, yea, that's a dumb general idea to consider.

Look above.  You are telling your opponent that you are about to turn right or left.  He can use that information against you.

Or you could actually thoroughly follow the material and you would have found the following:

"Enter the merge point with your lift vector pointed toward your next turn-"
"merge point being the key phrase. If you think about it, most pilots lose visual on each other just before the merge point. This can be due to position or G effects. What this means is that there is assumed to be a brief moment while passing through the merge point where your opponent can't see you. This gives you the opportunity to approach the merge with your lift vector pointed one way, and than adjust it to your initial turn while crossing the merge point out of sight of the opponent."

Murdr
"While this is good in terms of thinking in advance, setting up to win, etc. Its also a danger, in that a good opponant will take the clue and set you up.

As such you need to be aware of exactly when you start that move. And the dangers of 'telegraphing' a move, same as a fighter telegraphing a punch by dropping his shoulder. As a matter of fact I'll often go into a merge with wings banked left 'faking' a left oblique immelman, when I'm actually planning something quite different. As he loses sight I'll snap into where I'm really headed. If you time this right this can actually work in your favor, as he's looking over there (10:00 high) while I'm over here (2:00 high). At the very least I am not where he THOUGHT I was going to be.

Think slippery, plan in advance, but give nothing away that you don't have to. Be prepared to scrap everything at a moments notice if the last plan didn't work."

Ghosth

Do you understand that hundreds of people discover AH monthly with not even a basic concept of fighting and maneuvering in 3D?  Do you understand that players who have not spent years or decades dueling need some sort of starting point of understanding what is happening when they jump in the main arenas and get endlessly slaughtered.  Do you understand that when you put a wall of text up on a web page (no matter the quality of the information), the average person is going to bulk at reading it?  Do you realize how many subscribers give up in the first three months because they are not armed with the basic knowledge to make the game enjoyable?

Open your eyes and ask yourself if that material in any way an attempt at teaching the savvy player how do duel, or is it more aimed at a general audience to point them in a general direction so they can start making progress in an average MA engagment rather than quit in frustration?

[TW9]

I don't see how flying with a squad would make you develop bad SA habits unless you look at a squad purely for watching your 6 and not returning the favor. If anything flying with wingmen should help your SA habits since you not only have to look out for yourself but for atleast 1 other wingy.

As for ACM dueling religeously helps as well as taking the tnb types down on the deck below a furball. A pony actually could handle itself fairly well on the deck and is a good way of learning stall tactics and evasives.

But IMO in the grand scheme of things the most important of any of these is gunnery. You can have all the best ACM's in the world but they wouldnt mean a dam if you cant aim. Someone with good gunnery and bad ACM always has a "punchers" chance.

[ink]

Uptown I think dueling is about getting possistion to kill as quickly as possable, Dueling is "training" for MA, if you can learn to Merge and get a kill that first gun solution, without him having a gun solution.

hit me up if you see me online we can go to TA and just practice merging.



INK

[SEraider]

Uptown:

There is a thing called TMI 

After reading some of the crap here,  let's be practical.  Get into the DA or TA with guys I'll PM you about that do a good job explaining things.

When you hear talk of angles, throttle, pitch, ect.... you can feel a little lost until you just do it.  Forget of what you know and think you know and just let it flow and keep it simple.

After a little time, you will be versed in the dark arts of Dueling.....   Look for my PM.

[LLogann]

ACM?

I thought we were just seagulls...........

[dedalos]

Well of course it's going to go bad fast.  The primary factor being your utter lack of perspective.  Bighorn?  Really?  What part of the following words do you not understand?Wow, yea, that's a dumb general idea to consider.

Or you could actually thoroughly follow the material and you would have found the following:

Do you understand that hundreds of people discover AH monthly with not even a basic concept of fighting and maneuvering in 3D?  Do you understand that players who have not spent years or decades dueling need some sort of starting point of understanding what is happening when they jump in the main arenas and get endlessly slaughtered.  Do you understand that when you put a wall of text up on a web page (no matter the quality of the information), the average person is going to bulk at reading it?  Do you realize how many subscribers give up in the first three months because they are not armed with the basic knowledge to make the game enjoyable?

Open your eyes and ask yourself if that material in any way an attempt at teaching the savvy player how do duel, or is it more aimed at a general audience to point them in a general direction so they can start making progress in an average MA engagment rather than quit in frustration?

And here they come ladies and gentleman    Yes, Bighorn.  Whats the question there?  That is the only one that decided to try it with me.  Did I misspell his name or something? 

I agree with what you said about new players.  So, lets arm them with something that will get them killed in one turn wondering what happened.   I too was new and was armed with the "basic"  ACM skills I read and guess what.  I died so fast I did not know what hit me.  Even worse, I could not figure why I died since I followed the fighting instructions.  So yeah, lets arm them with something that will get them killed anyway.  You have chosen to take this personally.  I am honestly trying to help.   If you don;t agree, thats fine, but I think a new guy following those directions will get even more frustrated since he will die anyway.

Now, open your eyes also and see that the link was posted as help to someone that is not new by any means.  My response was in that context.

[Raptor]

Another important factor is hardware.

If you've got a killer rig and you're going up against someone that doesn't you've got a good advantage too.

Your computer, the connection, your stick setup (HOTAS lots o' buttons), track IR, rudder pedals, etc... all that stuff makes a huge difference too.

Everything that makes it easier for you to control the game that your opponent doesn't have will help.

I fly with a mouse and keyboard. For years I flew on dial up on a machine that could get ok FR but nothing spectacular and was overall considered a low end machine. I have never felt like I was at a disadvantage for this, and could outfly 90% of people I came across (DA or MA). Now I have a better machine running high res, high speed internet (still use mouse and keyboard) and can outfly most people out there (although I can tell I am not as good as I once was, mainly due to the fact that I don't play as much).

Your assumption is false