Dueling vs MA fighting

[Guppy35]

The more you fly and the more you push it the better you get.

It's really easy to lose the edge fast when you don't get the stick time in.  When I've had the time to fly I feel like I can give the good sticks a run for their money.  When I don't have time and only get a little bit of time to fly, I can sure feel it and fly worse then normal.  I make no claims to being a good stick, but flying time sure helps.

[PFactorDave]

A quick jog over to Amazon.com should do it, no?

That's where I bought it.

[Shane]

someone gets it... 

I see some in here aren't quite getting it... if you decide your going to duel any and all of the better sticks in the game, and see all the "tricks"... and learn them.... then the word trick ceases to be applicable... because now they are moves that you have seen and have learned counters for.... the variables, both offensive and defensive are endless... so the more variables you see and learn, the more prepared you are for split second decisions and the more successful you become in all situations...  
...
At any rate, the point is... dueling is an extremely valuable tool if you really want to push the limits in a situation that gives you the opportunity to break down and study as many variables as possible from one threat, then, in the MA...you apply this knowledge when the situation arises. The ability to see one threat and have the knowledge to already have mapped out the disposal of him quickly, allows you to move on to other threats that attempt to prevent the completion of your objective.  The experience gives you the knowledge, the knowledge gives you the confidence, the confidence gives you the ability, and the ability allows you to be successful.  No matter if your objective is to get through a cap to destroy the VH while heavy, clear a cap for base suppression, or just furball like a fool!  


PS  Also it gives you a chance to dish out some ownage!  

[Stiglr]

But you get the same benefit from flying in the arena or an event, and trying to survive each encounter.

What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. 

Sure, fighting a "good stick" one on one does give you an opportunity to learn... but then, so does fighting anyone in other situations, especially when you don't know if the guy's good or an easy mark... but you can't take the chance that the guy's an easy kill, can you? Also, how often do you find yourself in a one on one vs. a one vs. several or several vs. several? Duel tactics just lose all value when you've also got to keep track of two other enemy, and you have wingmen you can rely on. It's a completely different situation, as well as far more likely than the pure duel situation.

I think fighting the situation you're dealt is always better than a staged duel.

If you need to learn specific concepts, a staged situation might be better...

[sunfan1121]

Total BS stigler. 1v1 will help you against multiples if you know how to work the angles. One of the main things 1 v1 is knowing how to do a reversal. If you can master them against 2-3 guys its easy to force an overshoot to get the kill. Energy management is a critical part of both types of fighting. There is a reason fighter pilots train 1 v 1 even today, because it's the most demanding and simple type of combat there is, either you die or I do.

[Baumer]

Stiglr the fault with your line of reasoning is this;

A non/low skilled pilot in the main arena encounters another plane (probably a different model then what he's flying) with an unknown load-out, and they get into a fight. 20 seconds later he's in the tower, most likely a bit frustrated that he lost that quickly, so he chalks it up to a couple of easy things that he see's like,

A.) I was in the wrong plane
B.) I didn't have enough altitude
C.) I didn't have enough speed
D.) I didn't have cannon's

So he ups again and goes on his way to find the next fight, good or bad. This is a slow, frustrating way to learn and as the OP stated can lead to some habits that are hard to break.

Now think about this situation,
You and I agree to dual the same plane, same load-out for fuel and guns, at a set altitude for the merge. If you win that's great we both have a good fight (maybe I learn something  ), if I win, you can now remove a bunch of variables from what you just experienced in order to learn something new about how to fight. By having the same "everything", the dual comes down to a matter of pilot skill, therefore it is a better approach to learning.   

[Shuffler]

In a duel you can setup the same situation over and over to devise a method of turning a bad situation in your favor. You don't necessarily have to setup same plane, same alt, same loadout. With duels you can go so much farther and repeat till you have the situation in hand. Then go test it out in the MAs.

[stran]

I've been playing since AH1, flying the P51D most of that time. And I can do fairly well in the mains....most nites   I can even go to furball lake in the DA and bag my limit. But in a 1 on 1 co-alt merge, i just don't know how to pull out a win.

this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.

To be able to win at a disadvantage.

gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.

[Steve]

this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.

gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.

So, what does he do if he wants to do these things in a pony?

[thorsim]

Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?

i prefer Boyd's "Aerial Attack Study." it is more to the point imo ...

http://www.lulu.com/content/6166593

but when suggesting things to learn i tend to start pilots at the beginning and refer them to Ozzy ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicta_Boelcke

your easiest path to success is flying smart ...

"check six" is directed to virtual combat and is also worth a look as well imo ...

http://www.authorhouse.com/BookStore/ItemDetail.aspx?bookid=18638

[Chalenge]

Uptown the number one problem I see in your 1v1 has always been trying to turn as hard as you can from the first moment instead of letting the plane work for you but you arent the only one that does that... 

[grizz441]

What I don't understand is how this completely artificial co-alt guns-free merge to start helps you at all when so few fights start that way in any other situation. 

Find me in the DA, I'll let you shoot at me any chance you get and I will only take 'clean' shots.  I assure you it will not make a difference because I have learned (from dueling, go figure!) how to maneuver my plane away from HOs and baiting my enemy into taking a low percentage shot at me.  Don't miss otherwise you're in serious trouble.   

[grizz441]

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

I actually agree with you here that, in a multiplane engagement in the MA, SA becomes increasingly more important and ACM becomes less.  You can be a relatively lethal MA killer with no ACM skills at all, just flying a fast plane around picking anyone engaged and running if you see any high cons as they come into icon range.  Running from 1v1s too.  You could probably average 2-3 kills a run doing this.  Weak and timid albeit, relatively effective.  OR--- you could become a very proficient 1v1 artist, understanding all sorts of different concepts involving close range combat.  Take that knowledge and combine it with the SA that you talk about, you are all of a sudden averaging 4-5 kills a mission because you are taking more 'risks' because you have more ability, thus more confidence.  You'll even, all of a sudden, be excited to fight the 1v1s instead of running from them because you realize it's an easy kill.  Think about how many kills you are passing up on because you don't have the ability to get the job done.  Anytime you run from an enemy and pat yourself on the back for surviving, think about the fact that had you the skills learned in the DA, you would have been able to kill said enemy.

[uptown]

this would be more of a problem if you were 1v1 with another p51d. i think the majority of the late war plane set will wipe the floor with the p51d, in a duel. if you really want to duke it out 1v1 in a pony and come out on top you really have to pick the fights where you have the performance advantages.

gaining an advantage is simple is you have plenty of sky beneath you to work with, but if you're low then you definitely need a good climbing/accelerating and turning plane which the pony is not.

That's the bad habits I'm trying to break. The 51s are very capable on the deck...if you can create angles and show them your skinny side. I get more kills quicker coming in at 8k and below. Staying high only to dive on zekes and P40s does not make me a better flyer. Sure might kill Del or Lute like that, but wouldn't it be more rewarding getting a kill in a white knuckel knife fight?
Dueling i believe will teach me how to create angles to make them miss or for me to get some hits. I don't have much respect for the pony guy that stays at 15k avoiding the fight. I rather be in the fight earning my kills.

[uptown]

Uptown the number one problem I see in your 1v1 has always been trying to turn as hard as you can from the first moment instead of letting the plane work for you but you aren't the only one that does that... 

I've sent your Tempest running home on several occasions. Someone comes in higher then you and you're running home in a flash. Don't talk to me about ACMs. You're a opportunitist only concerned with K/D, score and survival. You sir are a Pacerr in a bishop uniform.