Dueling vs MA fighting

[SkyRock]

I see some in here aren't quite getting it... if you decide your going to duel any and all of the better sticks in the game, and see all the "tricks"... and learn them.... then the word trick ceases to be applicable... because now they are moves that you have seen and have learned counters for.... the variables, both offensive and defensive are endless... so the more variables you see and learn, the more prepared you are for split second decisions and the more successful you become in all situations...  

I'll give you an example.... I fight multiples alot...  me against 2 or more of them... in the MA of course(I mean where else can you so easily find 6 red guys all wanting to fight one fella at the same time..hee hee)   I am limited by the number I can keep track of, but 3 or 4 at a time and and the last one flying isn't uncommon... alright, nuff blowhard crap, lol.  But because I have dueled so many 1 v 1's in the DA, I can see each each enemy pilots options within the intial SA sweep of the situation... up to tracking 3 or 4 at a time and having either counters for their offensive possibilities maped out according to their alt and e states, or deciding that a blend of counters would leave me a shot on at least one, while staying in that window at just the right time as to prevent any real good gun solution on me.  This varies with types of birds your up against, gun packages, and all the other variables that you may encounter... Sometimes I even feel I have the upper hand... hee hee.  

At any rate, the point is... dueling is an extremely valuable tool if you really want to push the limits in a situation that gives you the opportunity to break down and study as many variables as possible from one threat, then, in the MA...you apply this knowledge when the situation arises. The ability to see one threat and have the knowledge to already have mapped out the disposal of him quickly, allows you to move on to other threats that attempt to prevent the completion of your objective.  The experience gives you the knowledge, the knowledge gives you the confidence, the confidence gives you the ability, and the ability allows you to be successful.  No matter if your objective is to get through a cap to destroy the VH while heavy, clear a cap for base suppression, or just furball like a fool!  


PS  Also it gives you a chance to dish out some ownage!  

[Sonicblu]

I'll give you an example.... I fight multiples alot...  me against 2 or more of them... in the MA of course(I mean where else can you so easily find 6 red guys all wanting to fight one fella at the same time..hee hee)   I am limited by the number I can keep track of, but 3 or 4 at a time and and the last one flying isn't uncommon... alright, nuff blowhard crap, lol.  But because I have dueled so many 1 v 1's in the DA, I can see each each enemy pilots options within the intial SA sweep of the situation... up to tracking 3 or 4 at a time and having either counters for their offensive possibilities maped out according to their alt and e states, or deciding that a blend of counters would leave me a shot on at least one, while staying in that window at just the right time as to prevent any real good gun solution on me.  This varies with types of birds your up against, gun packages, and all the other variables that you may encounter... Sometimes I even feel I have the upper hand... hee hee. 

Hey Sky is right on Ill have to call him Bobby Fisher. Its like chess the more moves (options ) you can see at a time and (IN time)the better you will be.

I know that you will start to see, ( maybe halucinate is a better workd ) the fight in your head.

Im always up for a duel and help where i can. < not the best but i like to help.

[PFactorDave]

I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached);

Not to drag this thread too far off topic, but I have never heard of this before and would be interested to learn more of the story.

[WMLute]

Yes learning how to duel helps in the MA. 
(but throw in KOTH and it REALLY helps)

No hardware isn't really much of a factor. 
(I flew w/ a horrible rig for many years)

Yes you will reach a point where it is "any given sunday".

[Shuffler]

Agreed, partially. I say dueling is stupid because, if you "build your skill" only under such artificial, stilted conditions, you won't learn to be flexible enough to deal with the other situations in the arenas or in events.

There are any number of expert duelists who win most of these 1-on-1s at "twenty paces" but are helpless in any situation BUT a co-alt merge where their favorite trick always works for them. They either whine about their "unfair" disadvantage (which they can never reverse because all their fights start "fair") or they whine that they were outnumbered, or say the guy(s) who shot him down only won because of their initial advantage. Well, duh. Maybe the other guys are smarter about setting themselves up with alt or position before they ever spotted you, and had the engagement in the bag from the get go. Or maybe the whiner is dumb enough to attack a pack of planes, rather than waiting for help, or for a situation that he has a good chance to win.

None of these scenarios involve a co-alt, headon merge with no firing HO on first pass. Neither did real life, for the most part. I did read an interesting story of two guys who actually had a duel, with "seconds", during the Spanish Civil War (with the haughty Luftwaffe pilot coming off second best and lucky to get out of there only "wounded" but with his arse still attached); but these were rare.

There's more to winning a fight sometimes than rudder and stick input. Situational awareness can win you a fight before there's a fight... AND can get you out of it when you'd otherwise get yourself killed. So, IMO, SA is 10x more important than a few pet dueling moves.

Who says all duels are even up. I like to use them to improve. I'm not against being OTD and you at 10k. Great practice and fun duel.

[uptown]

WoW! alot to read  There's no doubt in my mind dueling can make one better in the MA. That's the whole point of this for me. To be able to win at a disadvantage. 
I'll look forward to seeing you duelers around. But I have to watch Bama own Texas tonite 

[bustr]

Not to drag this thread too far off topic, but I have never heard of this before and would be interested to learn more of the story.

I found this here:  http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=133097


****************************************************************
The book I mentioned above has arrived. The alleged dogfight between Bruno Mussolini and American pilot Derek Dickinson never happened. Dickinson, who was around 40 years old, flew reconaissance, not pursuit planes. He also worked in aviation mechanics. Along with a few others, Dickinson peddled some remarkable stories to "action" magazines.

Page 110 of "Airmen Without Portfolio," by John Carver Edwards states, "Once back home, Dickinson recounted to a Herald Tribune reporter his account of an air duel with Bruno Mussolini, the Duce's youngest son. The contest reportedly took place on Septermber 28, 1937. Dickinson claimed that both he and Mussolini flew monoplanes (I-16 and a Fiat G 50) and that each pilot had two observation planes in tow as witnesses. The Spanish subsecretary of Air, Augustin Sanz Sainz, honored Dickinson by serving as one of his observers. The early phases of the dogfight resulted in a draw, claimed the American, until he circled behind the Italian and opened fire; whereupon Mussolini signaled his surrender. Dickinson told reporters that he ended the battle and returned to base. Perhaps the most bizarre tale to emerge from the Spanish Civil War, Dickinson sold the account to For Men magazine and later condensed for Reader's Digest."

Mr Edwards continued, "In addition to contemporary statements by Tinker, Baumler, and other volunteer pilots concerning Dickinson's penchant for exaggeration, aviation historians have since branded his chronicle as rubbish. First, Bruno Mussolini arrived in Spain in late September 1937 as a bomber pilot. He subsequently participated in twenty-seven sorties in a Savoia-Marchetti SM 79 and returned to Italy in March 1938, reportedly because the Republican Air Ministry had put a bounty on his head. Second, his alleged fighter, the Fiat G 50, was the sole Italian monoplane to appear in Spain, and did not debut until January 1939. At the time of the so-called duel, there were only two prototypes in existence. Third, Dickinson's primary witness, Sanz Sainz, who commanded the airfield at Alcala de Henares, had perished in a bombing raid six months prior to the Dickinson-Mussolini aerial engagement (March 23, 1937)."

[Grind]

When ever I go to the DA and can't find someone to duel with I generally go to the lake.  I don't climb out because I believe learning to fight from a disadvantage will help me the most the quickest, especially for fighting in the MA for obvious reasons.  I'm not very good at multi-tasking so I'll head out to a lonely quadrant of the lake and wait for them to come.  Sometimes only one guy shows up.  You'll get your butt handed to you a lot at first but you will get better.  Like someone else said... try reading Fighter Combat Tactics and Maneuvering by Robert L. Shaw.  Its a little dry and like a text book but worth the effort.  Just read a little at a time and it will help.  Pay special attention to chapters 3, 4 and 5.  I don't play as much nowadays (I get bored with gangbang type gameplay most of the time now) but look me up sometime.... I love to duel.

<S>

A8Grind

I just wanted to add that you don't have to go to the DA to find a good fight.  I've been around long enough to know who a lot of the "good sticks" are.  Just P.M. them they will tell you where they can be found.  If you're worried about your score then that probably isn't a good idea but from my experience I have found that there are quite a few players whos scores are very misleading. Learn to fight the best and maybe one day be one of them.  The main thing though is just to have fun, there is only so much time in day.

[Flench]

Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?

[Ack-Ack]

Great read guy's ..Big help ..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..
Are there and more good book's on Tactic's ?

Every Man a Tiger: Mock-Combat Flying Techniques for Light Aircraft. O'BRIEN, Frank J. And Timothy R. V. Foster


ack-ack

[Flench]

Great ! Thanks Ack-Ack
 

[Ardy123]

Dueling people makes a huge difference in your skills in the MA unless you consider vulching and 1v5+ skills for kills.

[FiLtH]

  Skyrock pretty much summed it up nicely. Reactionary...knowing where to put your nose according to the position/angle/speed of the enemy.

[Stiglr]

..Now to find Robert Shaw book on Fighter Combat : Tactics and Maneuvering ..

A quick jog over to Amazon.com should do it, no?

[stodd]

I learned a TON dueling sunsfan and grizz over and over again in the DA and had a fun time dying trying.