Dueling vs MA fighting

[Steve]

 He won't duel anyone in this game with more experience then himself (Clue #1).   

He and I sort of dueled once. We dueled in that we were both aware of each other, it was 1v1, and we fought. I was only able to use one hand for part of the fight because I was on  the phone and needed to write some stuff down, but we fought 1v1, with no other planes nearby.

[humble]

See Rule #4

Actually what it proves is ignorance on the part of the poster (and you). It is a documented fact that the SBD scored 7 air to air kills (on wasp) before an F4F scored a single kill. Further that the 1st air to air kill recorded by a US carrier born plane during the Guadalcanal campaign was by an SBD over an Am62. Further that the SBD was flown as fighter engaged in defensive CAP by both carriers at Coral Sea and that those SBD's accounted for 21+ enemy fighters. So in the real world the pilot outshines the plane. This is also reflected in the Hawk75's exceptional kill ratio in french service (220+/19), the P-39s exploits in Russian hands and the unparalleled success of the Brewster in Finnish service.

[Stiglr]

What does any of that have to do with the original comment thorsim posted?

He's talking about sim quality vs. players just gaming their game; you're talking about historical aircraft performance.

Apples? Oranges? Relevance check?

[Motherland]

so we've established that the average pilot in AH is nothing to be afraid of ...

It would pretty much be common sense that the average player is nothing to be afraid of to an above average player.

Generally you do get better by moving on to more challenging things once you've mastered training wheels. You put lead weights on your ankles, so to speak. That goes for anything. In Aces High the way of doing this is to use more 'outdated' or 'obsolete' aircraft.

[humble]

What does any of that have to do with the original comment thorsim posted?

He's talking about sim quality vs. players just gaming their game; you're talking about historical aircraft performance.

Apples? Oranges? Relevance check?

There is no "gaming the game" as it relates to ACM. Planes have relative strengths and any set of relative positions present options for both sides. As it relates to "dueling" a player learns to exploit both or either. Any comment that a "superior pilot" is gaming the game and that such things didn't occur "in the real world" is pure ignorance. In the real world you didn't get to pick your plane, or your mission or avoid combat because you were out numbered or "out planed". So the pilots who flew those "inferior" planes learned to rely on the most important weapon they had..."shoulder mounted, weighs 4.7 pounds"...the mind of a fighter pilot

[Yeager]

there is a BIG part of the fight that happens well before any ACM even comes into play.  It is strategic awareness that happens as you enter local awareness which happens before you enter combat situational awareness.  Seems to me some people forget about that aspect of air combat...in the MA it is vital if you judge your own success by survival first then who can cut cheeze second. In Dueling it has no role because rulz dictate how the fight is entered.

[Steve]

there is a BIG part of the fight that happens well before any ACM even comes into play.  It is strategic awareness that happens as you enter local awareness which happens before you enter combat situational awareness. 

But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner.  Shame on you!

[Yeager]

But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner.  Shame on you!

yeah but thats a part of the game that is easily dismissed. 

[humble]

But if you use this and avoid getting jumped by a pack of bad guys, you are a runner.  Shame on you!

Steve other then a bit of teasing I can't recall ever having a cross word with anyone who "flies smart". I love running into you, skat, tango, akak or any of the other quality "smart" flyers.

[Stiglr]

Humble wrote:

There is no "gaming the game" as it relates to ACM

Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.

And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.

[humble]

Humble wrote:
Of course there is. If the game isn't modelled faithfully, then there are any number of game tricks you can pull that will give you an advantage... but if you did the same in a different game that's simply modeled differently... OR in an accurate sim... then perhaps that wouldn't work.

And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; that's flying smart. It's STAYING when you know you're gonna die that's gaming the game.

you sir are proving to be a clueless idiot. Please show any single ACM component in the film clip i posted above that is a "trick"...

[Steve]

And @ Yeager: if you retreat from a situation where you're outnumbered or know that your chance of survival is slim, that's not necessarily "running"; .

It is in this game, for the most part.

[Stiglr]

Please show any single ACM component in the film clip i posted above that is a "trick"...

Never said you used any. Nor did I aim any comment at YOU specifically. I was talking about ACMs in general and both games and sims in general.  Please read what I wrote again, without fanboi glasses on and 'hate stiglr' contact lenses ... and maybe you'll grok the point I was making.

[humble]

No "fanboi" anything. I've found that this game (and most flight sims) are reasonably accurate with regard to the translation of ACM concepts. While any given component of an FM might be out of sync the realities of relative E state, position and plane capability when viewed from the concept of superior or double superior play out correctly. A pilot who understands the relative performance envelopes of the two planes and can reasonably judge relative lift vector vs position at any point in a fight can employ the concepts outlined by Shaw and others with a high degree of success. While we all may argue about the authenticity of a specific flight model or component there of the concepts play out correctly. I am unaware of any trickery or gameable exploit in AH with regard to any plane. I can take an A-20 or SBD and put up a reasonable fight vs any pilot in any plane, this is exactly what should be expected if reasonably competent ACM is employed. I can force the other pilot to either be patient and manufacture a solid advantage or I can look to entice a premature move. I can also cede the advantage early so to present him with his maximum potential before he has eroded my options completely...therefor presenting the potential to surprise him by slightly altering the context of the engagement. In the end I can make him fly a quality to fight to earn my pelt...this is not in any way gaming the game or dependent on a quirk of the game. In fact it is not dependent on any one sim and is transferable across any of them.

[humble]

double post