Author Topic: Dueling vs MA fighting  (Read 36105 times)

Offline Doberman

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #570 on: January 25, 2010, 05:53:15 PM »
no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights.  even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...

i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...

Yes, I see now that I misread your post, sorry.  Perhaps it's the lack of capitalization?  :)


Offline thorsim

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #571 on: January 25, 2010, 06:04:53 PM »
yea,
Yes, I see now that I misread your post, sorry.  Perhaps it's the lack of capitalization?  :)



 i try to spell check, but i can get sloppy ...

sorry for the confusion ...

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Offline dedalos

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #572 on: January 25, 2010, 11:16:29 PM »
And here we go again. So you will pull a reversal on some one even if cant handle your plane write?  How?  Just because the other guy is faster?  As far as you know, he may have e and can handle his plane. How are you going to win that?
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #573 on: January 26, 2010, 12:44:27 AM »
not being the best plane handler and not being able to handle your plane well are two different things.


And here we go again. So you will pull a reversal on some one even if cant handle your plane write?  How?  Just because the other guy is faster?  As far as you know, he may have e and can handle his plane. How are you going to win that?
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Offline BnZs

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #574 on: January 26, 2010, 01:23:39 AM »
First, thanks for getting the SpitXIV off of my D9's six in the Bulge. Clearing me led directly to the destruction of 3 P-51s a little later.  :devil

i find that pulling out a reversal or overshoot on a guy that is 75mph faster is much easier for me than trying to reverse a guy that has position and is very close to my energy state ...

Your darn tootin' it is. That is why again duelling is such good practice. Like I say, the margins are narrower.

Though if he's any good he's going to vertical against every reversal and at some point your ability to really *handle* the plane will be put to the test. Really if he's as good as you and in a similar performing aircraft with advantage, you die 90% of the time, but that's a big "if".

not being the best plane handler and not being able to handle your plane well are two different things.

They are really not. If someone can beat you in a given plane "duelling", then 99% of the time they can rape the furball and land pelts better as well, if they want.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf
Look here, took up the 190A5 for abit last night in the MA. Now at first me and my wingman are flying "smart", with all the alt you could ask for on the many bandits. Honestly, anyone with a pulse could have done the first two shoot downs. But how quickly things can change...all of a sudden there is a faster, more maneuverable fighter barreling down on my tail. With a very good pilot in it. Running is not an option.  I could have flown alot better here. I did not know who the pilot was...I didn't expect such an aggressive dump of speed and re-attack after the initial overshoot...I might have made more hay after the vertical overshoot if I dumped speed and gone for angles more aggressively. Though I don't put my chances against Lilmak in that matchup as anything but grim. I credit the fact that I survived at all long enough to be saved by my wingman to spending a Friday evening doing several duels in the A-5 myself, against a good stick, with us both flying the things slower than most 190 pilots think is possible. Moment later another faster, more maneuverable fighter comes in. Again, running is off the table. I get very aggressive with the P-51, confident I stand a good chance even in a technically inferior fighter because I will fly it to the "edge" if needed. Likewise, if that SpitXIV in the Bulge Snapshot had been closer to me, I believe I would have had a good chance of surviving long enough for you to pick him off me, or possibly even reversed him if he got particularly stupid. Aggression. Precise gunnery and plane handling. Wriggling out of situations where by all rights you should be dead meat. That is the practical benefit of so-called "artificial" duelling in similar aircraft Co-E.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 01:28:07 AM by BnZs »
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #575 on: January 26, 2010, 10:12:52 AM »
thanks, i have no problem with dueling and like many other things it can be fun frustrating and informative all at the same time.  my major reservation is that some would try and use results as proof of something other than who is the best duelist.

i understand the point of the matched duel i was just expressing some thoughts on my impressions as a non duelist, the comment you quoted was purely conversational about my experiences, but i understand what you are saying.

i have more thoughts but i don't want to bore you all

+S+

t


Dueling should never be frustrating. It's a great time for discussion and to gather info on what others are doing in certain circumstances. They can also tell you quickly what you did if they were able to get advantage over you.



We are discussing things here pretty civil... I doubt you would bore anyone with more input or questions.

no i was trying to say i was more comfortable fighting with energy differences even if i am the guy at the disadvantage because i know from experience how to approach those fights.  even fights seem to end up as either pure plane handling contests (which i have little hope of winning) or a waiting game to who is gonna screw up first which would likely be me in AH as well ...


All the more reason to duel. No matter if your a BNZer, a E fighter , or turner... your going to be down low n slow sometime. If you practice flying in that area you will improve and become more comfortable. That will usually give you a very distinct edge.


I tell folks in golf all the time.... quit hitting the club your comfortable with. It is the others you need to use to become more effective.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:21:22 AM by Shuffler »
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #576 on: January 26, 2010, 10:17:40 AM »
First, thanks for getting the SpitXIV off of my D9's six in the Bulge. Clearing me led directly to the destruction of 3 P-51s a little later.  :devil

Your darn tootin' it is. That is why again duelling is such good practice. Like I say, the margins are narrower.

Though if he's any good he's going to vertical against every reversal and at some point your ability to really *handle* the plane will be put to the test. Really if he's as good as you and in a similar performing aircraft with advantage, you die 90% of the time, but that's a big "if".

They are really not. If someone can beat you in a given plane "duelling", then 99% of the time they can rape the furball and land pelts better as well, if they want.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/nxyioiylykz/190A5survival.ahf
Look here, took up the 190A5 for abit last night in the MA. Now at first me and my wingman are flying "smart", with all the alt you could ask for on the many bandits. Honestly, anyone with a pulse could have done the first two shoot downs. But how quickly things can change...all of a sudden there is a faster, more maneuverable fighter barreling down on my tail. With a very good pilot in it. Running is not an option.  I could have flown alot better here. I did not know who the pilot was...I didn't expect such an aggressive dump of speed and re-attack after the initial overshoot...I might have made more hay after the vertical overshoot if I dumped speed and gone for angles more aggressively. Though I don't put my chances against Lilmak in that matchup as anything but grim. I credit the fact that I survived at all long enough to be saved by my wingman to spending a Friday evening doing several duels in the A-5 myself, against a good stick, with us both flying the things slower than most 190 pilots think is possible. Moment later another faster, more maneuverable fighter comes in. Again, running is off the table. I get very aggressive with the P-51, confident I stand a good chance even in a technically inferior fighter because I will fly it to the "edge" if needed. Likewise, if that SpitXIV in the Bulge Snapshot had been closer to me, I believe I would have had a good chance of surviving long enough for you to pick him off me, or possibly even reversed him if he got particularly stupid. Aggression. Precise gunnery and plane handling. Wriggling out of situations where by all rights you should be dead meat. That is the practical benefit of so-called "artificial" duelling in similar aircraft Co-E.
yea bulge was fun, no problem on the help, wtg on the 3 kills later ...

i broke even (well had an assist on a pony i reversed) but a spit got me on a reversal, and then got GB over 231 ...

i got a pony in the initial fight, and a TF 38 later clearing someone to land ...

DrBone caught me flat footed on a bounce where i got too aggressive in my a8 vs. his spit basically i underestimated his energy or his ability to get it back in the vertical vs. my a8 ...

Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.  

that is where i die the most ...

« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 10:35:44 AM by thorsim »
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
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blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
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Offline thorsim

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #577 on: January 26, 2010, 10:23:29 AM »
Dueling should never be frustrating. It's a great time for discussion and to gather info on what others are doing in certain circumstances. They can also tell you quickly what you did if they were able to get advantage over you.



We are discussing things here pretty civil... I doubt you would bore anyone with more input or questions.

well the frustrating thing is, not doing it often, it always seems that i had flown better than i am in the duels ...

i think i have trickled out most of the other thoughts, and can't really remember one that i have not brought up ...

 
THOR C.O. II ~JG-27~ Afrika-AH
Axis Co-Op
Quote from: any number of idiots here
blah blah Blah
Quote from: oldman
Good call.  Ignore the people who actually flew the real planes against each other.

Offline RufusLeaking

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #578 on: January 26, 2010, 11:01:07 AM »
well the frustrating thing is, not doing it often, it always seems that i had flown better than i am in the duels ...
I am always good looking until I look in a mirror...

But seriously, allow a shameless plug for lesser airplanes:
If you up in the MA in a plane that can't run, you end up working turns and angles. My latest favorite is the IL-16, though my eye is wandering to the P-40E. I've been thinking this since uptown's OP.  If I recall correctly, uptown kills me often in his P-51.  The Mustang is a great plane, but it almost always has an out; it can dive and run.
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Offline uptown

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #579 on: January 26, 2010, 11:10:02 AM »
Thats right. Everytime i'd do something stupid or plain got out flown i'd dive away. That's my love/hate relationship with the P51s. I've been in the DA instead of the main alot lately trying to break that habit of the "just fly away" option. These duels are forcing me to makeup or learn some pilot poop moves. :joystick:
Lighten up Francis

Offline pervert

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #580 on: January 26, 2010, 11:17:26 AM »
Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.  

that is where i die the most ...

FWs are pretty easy to make someone overshoot and get a shot in the process, either way the e advantage they had on you in say a dora is quickly equalised and you have the option to stay and fight or leave. Even in a plane that turns as badly as a dora even with co e states and a bandit 1k out on your 6 all you need is enough speed to manoeuvre and a bit of alt 500-1000 ft to reverse and force an overshoot.

Not saying you should fly around like a loon in it, thats not the 190s strength however if you can't get yourself out of a bad situation you will literally be flying an equation with a lot of uncontrollable factors and that can't be much fun.

The key to all these overshoots is the set up at the start even the split s I climb a little to give myself more separation for my wider turn radius, roll fast and use diagonal turns, I'm an awful shot even in a FW but you get the idea you get an overshoot plus a shooting opportunity and an option to get out of there.

http://www.4shared.com/file/208013336/26210800/splitsovershoot190.html
spilt s overshoot

http://www.4shared.com/file/208015222/1cfec8b3/190vertmerge.html merge overshoot

http://www.4shared.com/file/208017659/696de7ab/190flatturnovershoot1.html
190 overshoot

http://www.4shared.com/file/208019178/c9ccd409/190fltturnovershoot2.html
190 overshoot



Offline BnZs

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #581 on: January 26, 2010, 02:49:36 PM »
Excellent films Perv, thanks for posting them.

Though I must point that the reality of the MA is that the *usual* response from a Spit after you have grabbed angle for a crossing shot like that is to pull back on the stick even harder and try to HO with Hispanos.  :devil
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline BnZs

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #582 on: January 26, 2010, 02:57:48 PM »

Re: the FWs, the most trouble i find is when getting bounced and then caught in that "coffin corner"
where you are too fast to drop the flaps, and too slow to maintain stability and maneuver as hard as you may need to in that type of fight.  
that is where i die the most ...


Quite frankly, there is no getting around the fact that the A8 is the second least maneuverable fighter in the game. That is naturally going to present frustrations when attempting to polish dogfighting skills. In an arena full of Spixteens, no one would think the less of you for trying the A5 or Dora, :devil both give you a at least few more options in energy-maneuverability.
"Crikey, sir. I'm looking forward to today. Up diddly up, down diddly down, whoops, poop, twiddly dee - decent scrap with the fiendish Red Baron - bit of a jolly old crash landing behind enemy lines - capture, torture, escape, and then back home in time for tea and medals."

Offline JunkyII

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #583 on: January 26, 2010, 03:00:51 PM »
A5
Awesome fun in a good furball :rock
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Offline Saurdaukar

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Re: Dueling vs MA fighting
« Reply #584 on: January 26, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »

Quite frankly, there is no getting around the fact that the A8 is the second least maneuverable fighter in the game. That is naturally going to present frustrations when attempting to polish dogfighting skills. In an arena full of Spixteens, no one would think the less of you for trying the A5 or Dora, :devil both give you a at least few more options in energy-maneuverability.

Forget the Dora.  The A5 is probably the most under-rated plane in the game.

(now if we could just give it its historical top speed... ::cough:: )