Author Topic: heres a german carrier from way back  (Read 2603 times)

Offline thorsim

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 01:33:43 PM »
suggesting germany "couldn't" build anything is pretty silly considering the things they did build.

more accurate to say that there were things they did not deem pragmatic to build for a war expected to last 2 years, especially considering the tactical situation as you pointed out, and of course needs they had elsewhere.

so you can call them mistaken or short sighted but being technologically incapable was in no way the problem with Germany in WW-2. 
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Offline Westy

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 02:52:10 PM »
 I did not say they were not technically capable of it.  After studying Japanese designs
they spent years building an "almost carrier."  
 Begun in '36, stopped in '39,  sat rusting till '40, served as a floating warehouse for the
hardwood supply for a while, work resumed in '42 when the value of CVs was ultimately
seen (too late), work halted again in early '43, towed around to various ports till' 45 -
ended up  being taken by the Russians and used for target practice.  It took them almost
ten years to work on ONE carrier that was wrought with some serous design flaws and
after all that the thing was never finished. "Half-baked" :)  

 But seriously? They couldn't do it and the facts show it. Just because they were German
and desperation enabled to them to produce some advanced weaponry doesn't give
them a free pass. "Well if..." and "they could have if they really wanted to" are lala land
stuff. there was a need. they saw it. The war was not going to be over in two years and
they extended themselves to where they absolutely neede them (Africa...declaring war
on the US... Atlantic fighting...)
 A carrier was something that they did not have the means and resources to pull off. They
had no experience building carriers but more importantly they did not have the industrial
might to support building them or any kind of a blue water navy.  Perhaps if they had
not started WWII they could have had the means and resources to build one. Then again
we're talking "what if's" and under that type of scenario maybe they could have built a
nuke too.   But they couldn't and didn't.

 Besides the US only Great Britain and Japan could build CVs (and blue water navies.)
France had but the one CV they built on the 20's (stil more than Germany) and while
Italy gets points for ships with style she is tied with Germany for the "Almost!" award.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 03:06:48 PM by Westy »

Offline Serenity

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 04:31:54 PM »
I did not say they were not technically capable of it.  After studying Japanese designs
they spent years building an "almost carrier."  
 Begun in '36, stopped in '39,  sat rusting till '40, served as a floating warehouse for the
hardwood supply for a while, work resumed in '42 when the value of CVs was ultimately
seen (too late), work halted again in early '43, towed around to various ports till' 45 -
ended up  being taken by the Russians and used for target practice.  It took them almost
ten years to work on ONE carrier that was wrought with some serous design flaws and
after all that the thing was never finished. "Half-baked" :)  

 But seriously? They couldn't do it and the facts show it. Just because they were German
and desperation enabled to them to produce some advanced weaponry doesn't give
them a free pass. "Well if..." and "they could have if they really wanted to" are lala land
stuff. there was a need. they saw it. The war was not going to be over in two years and
they extended themselves to where they absolutely neede them (Africa...declaring war
on the US... Atlantic fighting...)
 A carrier was something that they did not have the means and resources to pull off. They
had no experience building carriers but more importantly they did not have the industrial
might to support building them or any kind of a blue water navy.  Perhaps if they had
not started WWII they could have had the means and resources to build one. Then again
we're talking "what if's" and under that type of scenario maybe they could have built a
nuke too.   But they couldn't and didn't.

 Besides the US only Great Britain and Japan could build CVs (and blue water navies.)
France had but the one CV they built on the 20's (stil more than Germany) and while
Italy gets points for ships with style she is tied with Germany for the "Almost!" award.

That's just foolish. The Graff Zeppelin never sailed because of one thing: Hitler. It is just like the story of the jet program, he killed it by being short-sighted. As you said yourself, work was constantly stopped and started, not because Germany COULDN'T build, but because they chose not to.

Offline Lusche

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 05:19:53 PM »
That's just foolish. The Graff Zeppelin never sailed because of one thing: Hitler. It is just like the story of the jet program, he killed it by being short-sighted. As you said yourself, work was constantly stopped and started, not because Germany COULDN'T build, but because they chose not to.

First, I find it funny how every single decision, particularly those being viewed as "faulty" (justified or not) is being blamed on Hitler. No carriers? Hitlers fault. No heavy bomber fleet? Hitlers fault (Read this many times on CH200). It's ridiculous. The process of decision making, particularly for the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine, was much more complex, and without that much influence by Hitler as it's often being claimed.

Second, on being a short-sighted: What benefit would it had been to keep the program running? Would all of those resources had been worth the investment? Considering the strategic situation, what benefit would Germany have had from having a single CV, and a quite weak one too? Only 40 Planes, 16 15cm cannons at the size of a battleship.
No, considering the quite limited resources (often just ignored here) and the geographical realities there was not much to choose at all. Stopping the whole project was quite reasonable.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 05:21:36 PM by Lusche »
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Offline warphoenix

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 06:25:04 PM »
That's just foolish. The Graff Zeppelin never sailed because of one thing: Hitler. It is just like the story of the jet program, he killed it by being short-sighted. As you said yourself, work was constantly stopped and started, not because Germany COULDN'T build, but because they chose not to.
crazy why then did he send his pilots on raming runs just so he could build more jets?
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Offline horble

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 11:23:18 PM »
crazy why then did he send his pilots on raming runs just so he could build more jets?

huh?
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Offline warphoenix

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2010, 12:17:57 AM »
huh?
the saint elmo(don't know how it accually spelled) attacks on allied bombers
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Offline Ack-Ack

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2010, 01:34:33 AM »
crazy why then did he send his pilots on raming runs just so he could build more jets?

the saint elmo(don't know how it accually spelled) attacks on allied bombers

LOL St. Elmo...you crack me up kid. 

I think you mean the Sonderkommando Elbe unit that was tasked to bring down Allied bombers by ramming them.  This was done to give some respite from the bombing to allow jet production to get back up to speed after almost being bombed into oblivion.


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Offline warphoenix

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 03:02:09 AM »
LOL St. Elmo...you crack me up kid.  (Image removed from quote.)

I think you mean the Sonderkommando Elbe unit that was tasked to bring down Allied bombers by ramming them.  This was done to give some respite from the bombing to allow jet production to get back up to speed after almost being bombed into oblivion.


ack-ack

yep like I said I didn't know how to spell it
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Offline Jayhawk

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 09:00:54 AM »
yep like I said I didn't know how to spell it

Do you know about:
1. Google
2. Spell Check

Using them would be good for you, and us.
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Offline Westy

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 09:27:47 AM »
"Using them would be good for you, and us."

If he did his homework instead of spamming the boards all day long that would help
us all too.


And a big +1 for Lusche!

Offline Simba

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2010, 12:40:41 PM »
Back to the first picture in this thread: it's of the Imperial Japanese Navy's Akagi, as originally built; the aircraft on deck are Mitsubishi Type 87 torpedo-bombers. The carrier was reconstructed, the work starting in October 1935, so the pic was taken before that date.

 :cool:

« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 12:52:00 PM by Simba »
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Offline hlbly

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2010, 12:51:56 PM »
US Fleet CV's . USS Ranger ring any bells ?

Offline Simba

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2010, 12:56:56 PM »
USS Ranger was designated CV-4, a one-off design laid down in 1931, launched 1933 and first commissioned in July 1934. The ship had many shortcomings and was mainly used in the Atlantic, where she was employed as an aircraft transport and attack carrier against Vichy French targets in North Africa. She was decommissioned in 1946 and scrapped in 1947.

 :cool:
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Offline Breakout

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Re: heres a german carrier from way back
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2010, 04:01:35 PM »
'St. Elmo's fire' is an electrical weather phenomenon sometimes observed by pilots, it produces unusual light effects around the aircraft.  :)