Author Topic: 109K cornering speed?  (Read 1356 times)

Offline Spatula

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2010, 01:02:29 PM »
As agent has mentioned, those figures are obtained from a sea-level test where altitude is held constant.

The figures should be accurate and it's only the inst turn with full flaps which cannot be achieved in practice because the flaps would auto retract. If they didn't those figures would be 100% in practice.
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Offline Ardy123

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2010, 03:43:19 PM »
Good thread and thus I'm bumping it.

Also, Ive noticed that if you have a spit or ki84, etc.. on you 6, diving down till your going about 250-275, then ruddering into a tight blackout turn to the right then to the left( high speed flat scissors), many planes will be completely unable to follow and will overshoot. Also, it helps to cut throttle on the initial part of the turn and pull throttle back on as you come out of the turn.
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2010, 03:49:09 PM »
Good thread and thus I'm bumping it.

Also, Ive noticed that if you have a spit or ki84, etc.. on you 6, diving down till your going about 250-275, then ruddering into a tight blackout turn to the right then to the left( high speed flat scissors), many planes will be completely unable to follow and will overshoot. Also, it helps to cut throttle on the initial part of the turn and pull throttle back on as you come out of the turn.
I normally judge where I should be on the throttle compared to where the other plane is.....ie hes pulling around on me I chop more throttle, hes definately overshooting I may hit WEP. When flying any aircraft you will be more successful,IMO, if you make alot of minor adjustments to throttle,rudder, trim ect instead of making a few big adjustments....like going from full throttle to almost none then slamming it back to full, maybe just trim off a 1/4 throttle if it is enough :salute
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Offline Redd

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2010, 04:14:26 PM »


I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?

I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
 
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Offline JunkyII

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2010, 04:17:52 PM »

I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?

I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
 
I never do honestly, my mindset while flying is that I know what my plane will be able to do when I need to, so im more worried about what the enemy is doing :salute
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Offline Agent360

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2010, 07:13:14 PM »
I watch my gauges all the time.

Airspeed and climb.

I often want to stay at a certain climb rate while in a turn. Dealing with turny planes in the MA is tricky. If you just go with your "gut" you will often end up nose down and not know it....getting too much speed etc.

I also watch the horizon gauge...it is imperitive you keep a perfect 90 degree turn at times.

It becomes a kind of technical flying...but there is a pay off.

Once you get to the stall fight they are not so important...BUT I often watch the climb very closly...this helps in KEEPING Energey



Offline McDeath

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2010, 06:12:21 PM »
Quote
I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?

For me not so much in the MA, but in scenarios and FSO's I check that info out and use it to my advantage. I find that an easy way to learn a few planes at a time as there are specific matchups in those situations.

Take what you learn and apply it in the MA.

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Offline Mace2004

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Re: 109K cornering speed?
« Reply #22 on: February 28, 2010, 09:34:44 AM »

I've always read about corner speeds and so forth , but does anyone actually use that information in a typical engagement ?

I'm usually thinking of speed and turn etc in relative terms to the other guy. At what point does anyone actually look at a gauge ? Am i missing something completely in regard to the importance of these technical things.
 
Since it's impossible to sustain corner for long it really serves as either a reference or target speed.  Everyone is familiar with the common terms "fast" and "slow" but how fast is "fast" and how slow is "slow"?  Knowing your corner velocity helps you put some numbers to those terms that actually relate to the performance capabilities of your aircraft.

As for "looking at a gauge" is concerned your ability and need to time share your attention varies according to where you're at in an engagement and the type of engagement you're in.  Just cruising around in Indian country you want to stay above corner so you have the best defensive options available should you get jumped.  If you're climbing out you can climb at corner velocity.  This reduces your climb rate but you're less likely to be picked off because you're too slow to maneuver effectively.  In a close knife fight you have little time to reference your instruments and little need to do so since the precise position and relative movement between aircraft is more important.  You may glance occasionally at speed but in a knife fight you're probably more interested in how close you are to flap and stall speeds than corner.  In an energy fight though, there's more opportunity and need to check your speed frequently.

You can use corner as a "reference" speed to determine the best maneuver to employ.  For instance just before a merge you have plenty of time to check your speed and it's one of the most important pieces of information you can have.  If you're significantly above corner you know that you will be G limited so you want to use a nose-high high-G turn and, as you convert E to altitude and decelerate you will slow to corner your turn rate and radius will improve.  How much you are above your corner reference speed gives you an idea of how "vertical" your turn can be.  The closer you are to corner the more oblique your turn while if you're significantly above corner you can use a more vertical turn.  (For a pure vertical turn I use another reference speed (typically around 300)).  If you're below your corner reference then you know you're lift limited so you will probably be better off choosing a nose-low slice. The slice lets you sustain the turn rate you have and may even improve it if it's tactically suitable to go very nose low (even to a split S).  What you're looking for is a reference speed that will give you an idea of which maneuver is best.   

Also, using corner as a reference can help you decide on the tactic to employ.  If you're at or above corner, you may chose an energy fight while if you're below corner, you may choose to go straight to an angles fight using your nose position to intimidate your opponent.  Of course, I'm simplifying again as there is a lot more to consider than just your speed relative to corner.  The tactical situation, the relative position/number of bandits, individual bandit E states, etc., are all extremely important.  Your speed relative to corner gives you your first indication of what options you may have.

In an energy fight there is plenty of time and reason to look at your airspeed and corner becomes your "target" airspeed.  It's the speed at which you want to conduct the fight.  You can't sustain it in a constant turn but you can stay in the vicinity of corner using high and low maneuvers.  Simplistically speaking, your maneuver sequence is "straight-line, turn, straight-line, turn..."  You gain E in the straight-line and convert E to angles in the turn followed by another straight-line to regain E. 

For instance, in an extension/pitchback fight, you should target corner velocity in preparation for the reversal (pitchback).  Since corner will give you the best turn rate/radius it's where you want to be for the pitchback.  If you start your extension below corner then use WEP and unload the aircraft a bit for best acceleration (straight-line) to just above corner then pitchback (turn).  At the completion of the pitchback, you unload and accelerate again (straight-line) for another merge.  If, when you start your extension you're already above corner, use the excess speed to gain separation (if needed) then go a bit nose high to convert your excess E into altitude.  Once you're near corner then reverse.  How nose-high or nose-low you go during the extension depends on how far above or below corner you are.  (Also, just to be clear there are other tactical reasons why you would reverse before reaching corner including your opponent's speed and nose position.)

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