For all you aviators.. LORAN-C

[Denholm]

Today I opened my inbox to find this interesting article published by AOPA. The article states that the Coast Guard plans to decommission LORAN-C beginning February 8 and that all stations will cease transmission by October 1.

All loran stations will cease transmission by Oct. 1, according to the notice. While loran-C is not now widely used for navigation, government and independent agencies have recommended using an enhanced version of it, eLoran, as a national backup system for GPS. The termination of  loran will leave the country without a single national backup system in the event of a GPS outage.

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2010/100112loran.html

Since I haven't jumped from pilotage and dead-reckoning, how do some of you pilots feel about it? Personally I'm siding with AOPA in that there should be some form of a backup since solar flares will be picking up again some time in the near future. Decommissioning LORAN-C should be no problem for the commercial airlines, since they use IGS along with GPS. Yet I still feel LORAN-C is of great use for aviators and ship captains when GPS can't get the job done.

[Stoney]

Today I opened my inbox to find this interesting article published by AOPA. The article states that the Coast Guard plans to decommission LORAN-C beginning February 8 and that all stations will cease transmission by October 1.

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2010/100112loran.html

Since I haven't jumped from pilotage and dead-reckoning, how do some of you pilots feel about it? Personally I'm siding with AOPA in that there should be some form of a backup since solar flares will be picking up again some time in the near future. Decommissioning LORAN-C should be no problem for the commercial airlines, since they use IGS along with GPS. Yet I still feel LORAN-C is of great use for aviators and ship captains when GPS can't get the job done.

Old technology that's not cost effective to continue.  GPS is with us for now and forever more.  The backup is the chart and compass.  Remember that the mere compass got Lindbergh across the ocean solo.  I'm a pilot, and former AOPA member, but I disagree with them often.

[Denholm]

I do realize we once used the map and compass (as I am now), yet in today's airspace and flight plan era, I don't see how IFR flights can be conducted if the pilots can't stay on course using that same map and compass. As I mentioned, commercial flights shouldn't have any trouble since they have an IGS backup, it's the GPS-dependent pilots and aircraft I'm worried about.

At least we have something in common, I've disagreed with AOPA more than I've ever appreciated their services.

[indy007]

How many total GPS failures have you seen while flying?

[AKHog]

I don't see how IFR flights can be conducted if the pilots can't stay on course using that same map and compass.

Uhh, because they can't see the ground, so they have nothing to reference with the map!

[Stoney]

LORAN isn't a backup for GPS now.  Most aircraft use one or the other, and very few use LORAN anyway.  No one is flying hardcore IFR using LORAN.  The FAA is getting rid of NDB and VOR as well.  They're much more relevant than LORAN ever was.  Ultimately GPS has and will continue to revolutionize IFR air travel.  Its simply a matter of getting the right gear in your plane.  Most general aviation aircraft and pilots are not equipped or trained respectively, to handle hard-core IFR flight anyway.  IFR on-top, special VFR--these are the realm of the casual IFR pilot and aircraft.  If you don't have a serious avionics suite and serious proficiency as a pilot, you have no business conducting IFR operations from wheels-up to wheels-down.  Therefore, LORAN isn't relevant and should be allowed to fade away.

It would be interesting to hear from some mariners about the relevance of LORAN for them.  I always saw it as more of a maritime technology anyway.

[Cobra516]

Dad used to have LORAN in his Super Cub and it worked great for getting us around on short trips.  I do remember that it's update rate for track across the ground was very slow compared to GPS.

The AA5B Tiger that I got my instrument rating in has a Garmin 430 WAAS and it's really an awesome piece of equipment to have IFR.  The LPV minimums are down to 200 ft AGL in a lot of places now, and like other GPS's it provides vertical guidance for LNAV/VNAV and LNAV+V down to the MDA.

I'd say that a total failure of the GPS in flight is rare but I have experienced a loss in WAAS accuracy, the approach I normally fly to LPV minimums has only given me the  LNAV/VNAV guidance a few times, the ceiling was plenty high to be out of the clouds at the MDA so it wasn't a big problem.

When flying with a WAAS GPS, that type of change in signal integrity is something to think about when planning to make an alternate out of an airport that only has GPS approaches serving it.

[68Wooley]

Decca (UK equivalent of Loran C) got phased out years ago. Not sure anyone really noticed its passing.

[Denholm]

How many total GPS failures have you seen while flying?

I've only used GPS two times in which I was mainly using pilotage anyways, therefore my use of the system doesn't justify my opinion of its reliability.

LORAN isn't a backup for GPS now.  Most aircraft use one or the other, and very few use LORAN anyway.  No one is flying hardcore IFR using LORAN.  The FAA is getting rid of NDB and VOR as well.  They're much more relevant than LORAN ever was.  Ultimately GPS has and will continue to revolutionize IFR air travel.  Its simply a matter of getting the right gear in your plane.  Most general aviation aircraft and pilots are not equipped or trained respectively, to handle hard-core IFR flight anyway.  IFR on-top, special VFR--these are the realm of the casual IFR pilot and aircraft.  If you don't have a serious avionics suite and serious proficiency as a pilot, you have no business conducting IFR operations from wheels-up to wheels-down.  Therefore, LORAN isn't relevant and should be allowed to fade away.

It would be interesting to hear from some mariners about the relevance of LORAN for them.  I always saw it as more of a maritime technology anyway.

That's also what I heard, yet if GPS is not available (say a massive solar flare is causing atmospheric interference) would there be another form of navigation (excluding IGS, which is super-expensive) not susceptible to atmospheric interference allowing for long trips across non-landmarked terrain such as the Gulf?

[indy007]

Just makes me curious. I have no idea what kind of extra features would be available to an FAA approved GPS receiver, real world accuracy, and only used them in flight sims.

but using just cell phones with integrated GPS receivers and Google Gears (soon porting to HTML5), I've built both a free to use force tracking system for large paintball games that gets from 10ft to 150ft accuracy depending on the phone, and a commercialized driver tracking system that's undergoing a 90-day beta trial right this second. GPS has been good to me

[Denholm]

I have no doubts about GPS' accuracy, I'm wondering what would work as a backup if GPS is unavailable due to some form of atmospheric interference. I know that LORAN-C isn't popular, and it's obviously not practical, but it works and, as I understand, isn't as susceptible to atmospheric interference. Is there any other form of long-range navigation available or being worked on which isn't susceptible to atmospheric interference?

[SFRT - Frenchy]

The Loran I had on my 337 had wild spikes of inacuracy. The worst thing about an equipment is not knowing if u can trust it or not. I'd say get rid of it for good. Kind of like those NDB approaches, yeah it's cute and u can impress the local o'club chatter but really ... u can be dead on and yet "way off course".

Back up for solar flaring? If you are in a situation where your life depends on a Loran or an ADF ... u screewed up long before that.

[Cougar68]

For us regular ol' single engine pilots the only backup needed for GPS is a good map with a line drawn on it.  I've never taken off on a  cross country without a written and mapped out flight plan to follow along with, even though several of those trips were in a G1000 equipped DA-40.  If the screen goes dark I know exactly where I am on the map, plus it helps pass the time. 

[Fishu]

Uhh, because they can't see the ground, so they have nothing to reference with the map!

You can utilize map, clock and compass even in the cloud. Of course knowing the wind is also very useful. Although for greater accuracy it would be better to leave that for someone not flying the plane.

[CAP1]

Today I opened my inbox to find this interesting article published by AOPA. The article states that the Coast Guard plans to decommission LORAN-C beginning February 8 and that all stations will cease transmission by October 1.

http://www.aopa.org/advocacy/articles/2010/100112loran.html

Since I haven't jumped from pilotage and dead-reckoning, how do some of you pilots feel about it? Personally I'm siding with AOPA in that there should be some form of a backup since solar flares will be picking up again some time in the near future. Decommissioning LORAN-C should be no problem for the commercial airlines, since they use IGS along with GPS. Yet I still feel LORAN-C is of great use for aviators and ship captains when GPS can't get the job done.

i have some thoughts.....not time to put em sall down right now. i'll add when i get hoime.