Clarification

[waystin2]

I am trying to understand the potentially "weak" shot terminology.  Are we talking about weak in the sense that it puts the pilot in a bad situation or weak because of some other reason?  I think it is weak positioning in some aircraft, but a great shot in some birds.  I regularly take and make shots like this in the better rolling birds (A-5, A-8, Spit 16, Spit 9, to name a few).  If I miss, then I can roll back to the left a bit, go vertical &  hi yo, and come back in again.  Am I missing something?

[Soulyss]

I am trying to understand the potentially "weak" shot terminology.  Are we talking about weak in the sense that it puts the pilot in a bad situation or weak because of some other reason?  I think it is weak positioning in some aircraft, but a great shot in some birds.  I regularly take and make shots like this in the better rolling birds (A-5, A-8, Spit 16, Spit 9, to name a few).  If I miss, then I can roll back to the left a bit, go vertical &  hi yo, and come back in again.  Am I missing something?

I think it's a little bit of both, if going for this shot freezes your nose then you're potentially trading position for what could be a relatively low percentage shot.   In the MA's I'd probably not hesitate to take a front quarter shot like that.  If I can get guns on the bad guy and he can't get guns on me, in a multi-threat environment I'm going to take the shot more often than not. 

 I also think that under certain situations it would less than ideal from the point of few of etiquette, in the DA/Duel situation I would probably pass up the front quarter shot pictured earlier and try for a shot on or behind the 3-9 line. 

[MadHatter]

The biggest reason I ask this is because I have seen many games get "over-ruled". Some tactics that may seem dirty get rules placed on them to negate them, but then it get's carried to far. For example, I used to play Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries alot when I started online gaming. Quick rundown, armies of giant robots blast away at each other. First thing to go was "missile boating". Putting as many missiles as you can on a mech and engaging at maximum distance. Dirty but effective. The counter to it was to take a small mech with big engines and run straight at them. First, it was if you missile boat, you got kicked. Then it was if you use an ankle biter (small mech with big guns) you got booted. Then it was if you shot out someone's legs, then if you shot someone in the back, double teamed, engaged at more then 400 meters, etc. etc. etc. It got to a point where you couldn't find a game where you can move. Literally, to play, you had to stand 200 meters from each other, and pound away. Basically, the notion of an "honorable" fight sucked the life out of this game.

I understand the attitude against ho'ing. To me it seems to be a sucker punch and run -vs- the stand and fight let's see who the better pilot is. I play this game for 2 reasons: One, to be better then you guys. I know that sounds conceited, but before anyone's feathers gets ruffled, hear me out. I love a challenge. I may be, and may always be, a mediocre pilot. But that will not stop me from hunting the superior plane or pilot out there. I'm the Mad Hatter for a reason, I like impossible odds. I will dive into a horde alone, and tho I may last only 3 seconds, you will know I've been there. I actually turned a horde the other day, these guys got so intent on killing me they didn't realize I brought my own behind me. Ho'ing to me seems cowardly, and honestly, ineffective. 7 times out of 10, the end result is my wing got pierced. Fugitive, thanks for the diagrams. I kid you not, as soon as I saw that I upped a Spit9 and went looking for a ho to try it out on. 1 question tho, instead of turning to the inside and following around, wouldn't it be better to cut throttle and turn to the outside to cut the degree of the turn? I'm not trying to second guess you, to me it seems that dogfighting becomes more of a chess match in the air (with move and counter-move) and I'm just trying to figure out the advantages to particular moves. The second reason I play, is I see so much potential in this game. There is so much that can be done to increase the challenge in this game, and I want to be around when it happens. My only hope is that no one gets stagnant with the status quo and leaves different aspects untapped.

The one thing I don't want to happen is to lose my chance at either winging up with a superior pilot, or getting into a fight with one, because of things I've done out of ignorance. Hence, I ask questions. Cajon don't worry about a hijack, the fact that people argue over things like this gives me a chance to get a feel for what is and isn't. Besides, I like watching a good fight.

[humble]

From my perspective two things can make a shot choice poor here. If you look at his lift vector its pointed down (if he rolls in plane) so he is accelerating into the shot from a lift vector perspective. This creates a potential overshoot as he continues to pull lead if he is +E. If he is in fact minus E then pulling thru the shot will bleed E and if he cannot sustain lead long enough leaves him much worse of if he doesn't convert the shot. Looking at his actual orientation at the time of the picture he is in out of plane lead and pushing neg G's for the shot (or he's already missed) so he's freezing the nose a bit. If he's -E in a scissors fight shot is outstanding and only thing is a late transition from out of plane lag to in plane lead, however if he's + E then I read the static picture as an overshoot...

[Lusche]

The biggest reason I ask this is because I have seen many games get "over-ruled". Some tactics that may seem dirty get rules placed on them to negate them, but then it get's carried to far. For example, I used to play Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries alot when I started online gaming. Quick rundown, armies of giant robots blast away at each other. First thing to go was "missile boating". Putting as many missiles as you can on a mech and engaging at maximum distance. Dirty but effective. The counter to it was to take a small mech with big engines and run straight at them. First, it was if you missile boat, you got kicked. Then it was if you use an ankle biter (small mech with big guns) you got booted. Then it was if you shot out someone's legs, then if you shot someone in the back, double teamed, engaged at more then 400 meters, etc. etc. etc.

You surely have noticed that you won't get booted for any tactic you are using in combat in Aces High. For good reason, HTC doesn't dictate you how you fly and fight in the MA's. Apart from the rules made by them (Regulating player conduct for the most opart) there are none.
Players do not only have very varying opinions on about the "rules" how everyone should fly and fight, but often they do lack to follow them themselves - of course  always with an excuse


Fly & fight the way you find reasonable and fun. Treat others like you want to be treated. Vulch if you like to, and don't do it if you think it's boring or lame.

[Soulyss]

Fugitive, thanks for the diagrams. I kid you not, as soon as I saw that I upped a Spit9 and went looking for a ho to try it out on. 1 question tho, instead of turning to the inside and following around, wouldn't it be better to cut throttle and turn to the outside to cut the degree of the turn? I'm not trying to second guess you, to me it seems that dogfighting becomes more of a chess match in the air (with move and counter-move) and I'm just trying to figure out the advantages to particular moves. The second reason I play, is I see so much potential in this game. There is so much that can be done to increase the challenge in this game, and I want to be around when it happens. My only hope is that no one gets stagnant with the status quo and leaves different aspects untapped.

Sounds like you're describing a one versus two circle fight, take a gander at this thread
http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/index.php/topic,253819.0.html

It was a very complete discussion of the merits of both merges and when to use one as opposed to the other.

[The Fugitive]

Fugitive, thanks for the diagrams. I kid you not, as soon as I saw that I upped a Spit9 and went looking for a ho to try it out on. 1 question tho, instead of turning to the inside and following around, wouldn't it be better to cut throttle and turn to the outside to cut the degree of the turn? I'm not trying to second guess you, to me it seems that dogfighting becomes more of a chess match in the air (with move and counter-move) and I'm just trying to figure out the advantages to particular moves. The second reason I play, is I see so much potential in this game. There is so much that can be done to increase the challenge in this game, and I want to be around when it happens. My only hope is that no one gets stagnant with the status quo and leaves different aspects untapped.

I didn't say that was the ONLY way to do it  The point is by pointing your nose strait at the other guy your giving up angles and a better chance at getting ahead in your NEXT move. Like a chess match you must think ahead, the farther ahead the better you can force the bad guy to just pop up in front of your guns.

I made the pictures because most players say I don't HO, but they are flying INTO the HO all the time. Showing that turning out happens long before you get in gun range most of the time helps new players learn that they have been guilty of accepting the HO instead of working to avoid it and set-up the next move.

[waystin2]

Thanks for the "clarification" guys no pun intended.   

[Shuffler]

I thought this was about followers of the school teacher in Back To The Future III.

[hlbly]

"Dan" huh?  Just a name at random....huh?

 

Ok maybe not entirely random , but I had to give the readers some clue as to involved parties . With my uber clever disguise of the other guys involved , Sherlock Holmes would be unable to figure who they are . Got to throw the bbs slueths a bone on occasion . The behavior alone < 38 low slow surronded by bad guys alone > would never help people guess who it was . Right ? I am right aren't I ?

[Guppy35]

Ok maybe not entirely random , but I had to give the readers some clue as to involved parties . With my uber clever disguise of the other guys involved , Sherlock Holmes would be unable to figure who they are . Got to throw the bbs slueths a bone on occasion . The behavior alone < 38 low slow surronded by bad guys alone > would never help people guess who it was . Right ? I am right aren't I ?

Clearly some dweeb pilot without a clue as to what he is doing!

[hlbly]

Clearly some dweeb pilot without a clue as to what he is doing!

Quite obvious you don't know him  . See soulyss my disguise worked . He has mad skillz , Flying incomplete 38s , how to develop the hopeless tactical situation . Why he taught me that very night how to do this myself . Rushing to his , only to see him explode and fall in small pieces into the drink . I arrived just in time to repeat his performance mere seconds later . So add incredible teaching to the list . Enough ? Or do I need to continue to list his skills ? Willing to admit finally your vaunted research skills have failed you ? 

[JunkyII]

To many people think front deflection shots are HOs. Question is this a HO?

(Image removed from quote.)

Like Lazer said its not a HO but we would have to see about 30 seconds before that. One big pet peeve of mine is when someone doesnt HO on the first merge, does a immelmen then shoots you on the second when you dont think they are gunna take the crap shot......This will get me going for hours on 200

[Ghastly]

Like Lazer said its not a HO but we would have to see about 30 seconds before that. One big pet peeve of mine is when someone doesnt HO on the first merge, does a immelmen then shoots you on the second when you dont think they are gunna take the crap shot......This will get me going for hours on 200

Huh? It's guns cold first pass (not out of high ideals, but because while my opponent is trying for the HO I'm working to gain the angles)  but after that, get in my sights...  and of course, I expect the same in return.

[JunkyII]

Huh? It's guns cold first pass (not out of high ideals, but because while my opponent is trying for the HO I'm working to gain the angles)  but after that, get in my sights...  and of course, I expect the same in return.

In many fights(especially when there is a difference in E) the lower or slower con is going to want to go towards HO to get the E back to eqaul. Alot of times this can give the other guy a shot but alot of those times the lower/slower guy can easily just nose on a shoot....no skill in that shot. Now if your in a scissor and see a full profile of the enemies plane then yes that shot isnt weak and the enemy may end up HO but if your an alright shot you can drop them before they do. The whole "if your in my gunsight im gunna shoot" I think is a horrible way to play IMO